Wherefore the Anger?

[GePap]

Shattered expectations

Scientist:
The reason I am angry over Civ3 is that the folk at Fixaris simply ignored what was out there, and I also believe, the community:

Before Civ2 there was only Civ. was Civ2 better than civ and bring in lots of revolutionary changes while keeping that wich we loved? Yes.

Before SMAC there was Civ2, it add-ons and Civ. Did SMAC bring in brand new gameing concepts and revolutionary improvements while keeping around those gaming practices that we loved? Yes.

Before Civ3 there were SMAC, its add-ons, Civ2, its add-ons, Civ, and also CtP and CtP2 and their add-ons. Did Civ3 make revolutionary changes to the series while keeping those concepts that made the previous games great, or learn from the mistakes and adapt worthwile ideas from those games that many thought were partial failures? NO.

That NO is why i am angry and disappointed about this game.

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Hoek
I really don't know why you waste your time making such useless posts. They don't do you any good, they don't do us any good, they don't do anyone any good.

Hoek.

The most missguided posters around here, are those who simply cannot accept how the overal game-mechanical framework is designed in Civ-3. Such criticism really are 100% pointless and meaningless, since nobody really can do anything about it at this stage - least of all Firaxis.

The ONLY thing Firaxis can do at this stage, is minor gameplay & feature-related adjustments, and addons to the existing features (like more editor-options, for example). Later they can add completely new features, like complete MP- and complete scenario-support together with a commercial extension-package.

BUT THEY CANNOT DO COMPLETE FROM-THE-GROUND-UP FRAMEWORK RE-DESIGNES OF THE GAME.

They simply cannot do that within the realms of future Civ-3 patch- and game-addon releases. Why isnt this pretty much bleeding obvious?

[Pachabel]

Ya know, I rest my case. Those that are what they are prove it for me so much more effortlessly. Thanks.

Fanboy, eh, how very amusing. But thanks for showing exactly what I stated.

P

[Hoek]

Libertarian: Hey, buddy, you're the one who set the tone here, not me. And if I'm not mistaken, it was you who set the tone in the other thread too.

Regarding Firaxis at this point: it was a great relief to finally hear from Dan that they don't actually have any plans for scenario-making capabilities as of now. If they had just said that to begin with, alot of us would be alot less upset.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Hoek
Libertarian: Hey, buddy, you're the one who set the tone here, not me. And if I'm not mistaken, it was you who set the tone in the other thread too.

Regarding Firaxis at this point: it was a great relief to finally hear from Dan that they don't actually have any plans for scenario-making capabilities as of now. If they had just said that to begin with, alot of us would be alot less upset.

For the record, Hoek, I didn't say we didn't have any plans. I said I couldn't tell you what our plans may or may not be until it's confirmed one way or the other.

Dan

[jgflg]

Re: Wherefore the Anger?

Originally posted by scientist
What is the source of all the harshly critical posts on these forums? Is the fault with Firaxis and Infogrames, or are too many of us overexpectant whining crybabies?

I was just wondering about the last Firaxis release, SMAC. Does anyone remember disappointment and anger at the publisher and developer being this virulent?

I remember the Firaxis hosted forum in those days, and I don't remember it being anywhere as hostile as this one.

I will argue it is because Civ III is an inferior product in comparison to SMAC, especially in regards to innovation. Also, Firaxis' and Infogrames' heavy-handed treatment of the enthusiast community has exacerbated the situation.

I am interested in others' perceptions.

My theory is that people feel let down from their original expectations. Whether they were too high to start with or Firaxis failed to meet them is why all the arguing is going on. The hype behind this game was so strong, and the series reputation so powerful, it was almost a given that a lot of people would be upset, no matter what came out.

The people that I always see complaining are the ones that had preset expectations/demands about what they'd get. The ones who are relatively happy seem satisfied to just go with the flow and focus on bug fixes.

It is suprising to see this much anger about a turn-based game though. I've seen more anger here then on MMPORG message boards which are usually the worst.

[Hoek]

So when you said that you didn't know whether or not there was going to be some kind of upgrade to allow scenario making, you meant you weren't allowed to say one way or another? Do your higher-ups realize how confusing this all seems to us?

[Moraelin]

Originally posted by Ralf
The ONLY thing Firaxis can do at this stage, is minor gameplay & feature-related adjustments, and addons to the existing features (like more editor-options, for example). Later they can add completely new features, like complete MP- and complete scenario-support together with a commercial extension-package.

Yes, and I believe that most of us realize that pretty well. I don't think anyone actually still has hopes of getting for free half the stuff that was promised, and we discovered was missing when we forked over the cash. (E.g., an actual modder friendly game, not just a crippled simple edior that's really hardly any better than editing text files.) Nor that a patch will make it actually a new game -- as we mistakenly assumed it would be -- instead of an over-simplified remix of Civ 2 with some SMAC features. (And actually a step back from SMAC, at that.)

Yes, we realize that very well. Give people some credit here.

In some people's cases, that's the whole reason for feeling ripped off. In other cases, it's reason for hope that maybe at least a commercial expansion pack would make it what it should have been in the first place. Yet others will think "what else is new", and get on with their life. Or various other reactions.

But again, I don't think anyone actually missed the very obvious.

[gachnar]

Why do people feel that Firaxis has cheated/insulted/conned them?

They make software.

There is no guarantee that you will like it.

If they make the changes that many people are whining about, I would like it less. I already own CivII. I have CTP2.

The guys at Firaxis made a game. They are selling it to people. If any of you had contracted them to make a game, you could complain. But instead they made a game the way they wanted to (more or less). And you take one look at it and say "Your game sucks", "You cheated me", "You made it wrong", and even "You guys are dumb", like a bunch of 4 year olds who dont like how the sand castle turned out.

I'll say it again: I am amazed that Dan still comes here. If I were him, I would have trouble dealing with everyone saying that the thing I made was somehow not done correctly simply because its not what they would have done.

And now, I will wait for everyone to call me hurtfull name like "Firaxis-apologist" and "Fanboy". But I guess thats what I get for respecting the time and energy real people spent making something they enjoyed. And they must really enjoy making CivIII, because they put up with a hell of a lot from whining 9 year olds (intellectually at least).

[yin26]

I won't call you a fanboy just 'horribly uninformed.'

[gachnar]

Originally posted by yin26
I won't call you a fanboy just 'horribly uninformed.'

Oh very well yin, why is that?

You decided you hated the game before you even played it.

You are one of the most frustrating people here. You have the intelligence and passion to really improve the game (I like the game, but I haven't met a game that can't be improved), but you mostly just use your intelligence to post witty insults and complaints.

So what part of my opinion is "horribly uninformed"? Do you think that I will suddenly dislike the game when I finally get a spaceship and conquest win? Or perhaps I was tricked into thinking that the Firaxians hate the game as much as some people on this board?

Or do you mean that Firaxis actually does have a duty to see that you personally enjoy the game?

You know what, I find you horribly uninformed. You somehow believe that it would be possible for Firaxis to meet your impossible expectations.

[Libertarian]

Originally posted by Hoek
So when you said that you didn't know whether or not there was going to be some kind of upgrade to allow scenario making, you meant you weren't allowed to say one way or another? Do your higher-ups realize how confusing this all seems to us?

Us? Speak for yourself.

You've been answered again and again. Each time, you've mined the penumbras for meaning that isn't there, hoping all the while to morph the answer into ammunition. Enough already.

You'd be surprised how many fans just play the game and don't hang out here (or at CivFanatics). You can stop pretending to represent a majority here. At least until a poll is taken to see how many are whiners and how many are fanboys.

[yin26]

gachnar: Read the past 6 months of threads here and get back to me. I won't waste time telling you just how misinformed you are. It would take me too long. For the record, I am not picking a fight with you. I don't even know you. But you have simply missed too much to come in here and make blanket statements about why some people are upset.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS


For the record, Hoek, I didn't say we didn't have any plans. I said I couldn't tell you what our plans may or may not be until it's confirmed one way or the other.

Dan

Well, that clears that up! No wonder it took so long to get a response to our open letter. No, wait....

[Wrong_shui]

moo