Wherefore the Anger?

[scientist]

What is the source of all the harshly critical posts on these forums? Is the fault with Firaxis and Infogrames, or are too many of us overexpectant whining crybabies?

I was just wondering about the last Firaxis release, SMAC. Does anyone remember disappointment and anger at the publisher and developer being this virulent?

I remember the Firaxis hosted forum in those days, and I don't remember it being anywhere as hostile as this one.

I will argue it is because Civ III is an inferior product in comparison to SMAC, especially in regards to innovation. Also, Firaxis' and Infogrames' heavy-handed treatment of the enthusiast community has exacerbated the situation.

I am interested in others' perceptions.

[Pachabel]

It's immaturity. When a child doesn't get things exactly as they want them, they act out.

Civ III is a great game that has a few bugs; they're being addressed.

The inane ranting stems from those who cannot adjust to what the game actually is and insist that it becomes what they want it to be. Immaturity.

[Moraelin]

Actually, IMHO what really causes it is the Holy Defender of Firaxis (TM) horde of fanboys. Try reading a few threads. There's a group who'll never post a single line of useful information, just flame everyone who dares as little as have a question about the game. Even more so if -- God forbid -- you dare have an idea or discuss how it could be improved. What, the game isn't 100% PERFECT? Pure heresy! Starting a history thread automatically prompts someone to jump in and flame, without even bothering to check what's written there. I.e., whether anyone is actually complaining about realism, or just, you know, discussing about it.

Anything short of posting "Yay! It's the greatest game of all time!" is unacceptable, for some people.

(And in all fairness, can't even blame them. If you look at the official Firaxis owned www.civ3.com you'll notice that half of it it's Sid Meier making verbal love to himself. PREACHING about how great a designer he is, and we should all just believe him. Instead of, you know, just proving it with a great game. Letting the facts speak. And most of the other half, is the rest of Firaxis singing high praise to him. Guess with that kind of shameless hype, it's only normal to attract that kind of fanboy who lives for hype.)

And some of us, myself included, are immature enough to flame right back when we're flamed and called names for nothing. I'll freely admit that I've called the game stuf that I normally wouldn't have, in the course of answering to flames. I've questioned the AI, even though I don't really mind its being dumber than a half brick in a sock. (Yes, it's very poor AI, but I don't mind winning. Saves me the bother of looking for cheats, really.) I did however start minding only getting the standard (and false) "you're only whining because you can't beat the AI". I wouldn't have even NOTICED (or tried to examine) how the AI works, if I hadn't read that answer every couple of threads. And so on.

Dunno, maybe it means I'm a troll. But even a true troll will go away if he doesn't get attention. Mass flaming in defense of Firaxis doesn't solve anything. Never did, never will.

That said, yes, I'll still maintain that scientist is right. Civ III is an inferior product, with not enough innovation to be called a new game. At most it might be called a mod or expansion pack to Civ II. I've seen free mods for CTP2 which added more than Civ 3 adds. And insisting on "look at what's new since Civ II" is a pointless tactic. There have been several other games since Civ 2. Compare it to THOSE, not with something from many years ago. The world has moved on, while Firaxis seems to be stuck at a moment in time that was long ago.

But again, that's not even the main reason. As I did say before, Civ 2 was a great game, and SMAC was a great game. And I don't really mind THAT much playing a tweaked re-release of Civ 2, with some parts from SMAC retro-fitted. Even if I did pay the price of a full new game for it, wth, I can think of far worse stuff that I've bought.

But flaming breeds flaming. Again, some of us are both immature AND bored, and will flame right back.

[Libertarian]

I think the problem lies with the whiners and their refusal to accept anything less than Firaxians being the spawn of hell and Civ3 being the worst game in the history of computering. These are the people who called Dan Mahaga a maggot. These are the people who accused Firaxis employees, who visit the forum regularly and harvest feedback, of spitting in our faces. These are the people who act like drunks in a blind rage. They troll the board (while accusing US of trolling), and spout their vemon in every thread. They even open whole new threads for their childish venting. Often duplicates. And often multiples per hour.

I've been assured it will pass. I will hail the day.

[Moraelin]

And you're any better, Libertarian? So far I've seen only 1 (one) post from you ammounting to anything constructive. The rest are drivel like the above, which serve no purpose other than to throw fuel on the fire and make people even more angry.

Yes, ONE person called someone a maggot. As a result you call a LOT of people whiners and whatnot, without even bothering to read what they wrote. Gee, that's GOT to be more constructive. No, really.

Starting duplicate threads? Look at how many duplicate threads got started only today by the Holy Defenders of Firaxis (TM), for no obvious reason other than to insult the "whiners." I'm talking posts with zero useful content.

Fact is, for better or worse, a lot of us have posted very detailed stuff, including ideas of what could possibly make it better. That is, the whole purpose was to make the game better, not to raze Firaxis, plough the place and throw salt. And people like you, answered... what? "Go away, whiner" or variants thereof. Gee, that's got to be an informed and good rebutal of their ideas.

Yes, it is possible that those ideas are brain-dead and would just ruin the game. Care to actually explain WHY and IN WHAT WAY? Or if it's been discussed before, point us at that discussion? I mean, really, some of us are more retarded and can't grasp all the details of what's wrong with an idea just from such enlightened sentences as "These are the people who act like drunks in a blind rage."

Either way, deal with it. Acting like a 9 year old who's insulted by the mere fact that someone can dislike his favourite toy, isn't going to make anyone just go away.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Hey, shut up and go play the game. That's what it's for, right? And if not, go play something else.

[Herder]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Hey, shut up and go play the game. That's what it's for, right? And if not, go play something else.

And why exactly did you post this? Perhaps he is at work and can't play right now...you know, a job where they give you a check?

I think alot of the "perceived" anger is directed at the other posters who contribute nothing, as the two fanboys above have shown, and throw the first stone.

Some of the omissions in Civ III, like sentry mode, stacked movement (need i go on? we've heard it all before) are pretty damn obvious and there appears to be no relief in the patch.

Here is a cluestick for people whining about "whiners". We paid money for the game. I was smart and took mine back. I may purchase Civ III if some of the omissions from the prior Civs are included but why regress?

Civ III is great in some areas but way poor in other areas that are fundamental to the game. I don't think anyone can deny that.

The first thing I do when I want to buy a game is check all the message/fan boards I can. It really helps to know what the dedicated gamers think because that is where the true value of a game comes from, its replayability.

I hope you are aware also of the scenario community's angst in this issue as well?

Anyway, fanboys attempt to drown out any criticism of the game. Sometimes I think they are paid by company because who can be so dense as to not want good debate? They have no point and are maddeningly frustrating in their obvious attempts to drown valid criticism and hijack a thread. Quite honestly, it wouldn't surprise me.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Hmm. Perhaps I was misunderstood.

What I mean to say is, all this debate, although some of it definitely gets on my nerves a little, is all well and good if it is actually discussing the game itself, patch etc. That's what Apolyton is (hopefully) all about. But, in the case of a thread like this (that I am ironically helping to extend ) it seems to me that everyhting has suddenly got very far off topic, and is really, well, rather pointless.

I admit the flaws in Civ3 and some others that have changed since Civ2 that I can no longer use to my advantage, but overall I am enjoying the game. I HAVE to if I paid all that money for it!

I have had 10 years of Civ experience in all the games featured at Apolyton except TOT and CTP2, and my advice is to say what irks you about the game, how to fix it, what you like, what should be there etc. There is NONE of that here. And what is this thread about? Has anyone even posted anything in this thread answering scientist's questions?


Oh, and if ppl are at work, should you really be writing in here on your boss' time?

[Moraelin]

Actually, now I'm at home and waiting for someone to post a hack of the new editor, so I can mod the bleedin' thing. (You know the complaint, it's been posted before by us 9 year old whiners: the lame crippled editor supplied doesn't even have an Add button for most stuff. It's worse than editing .txt files, for crying out loud. And there still doesn't seem to be any scripting support...)

I'll admit though that a lot of the posts have been done from work. I'm between assignments, and, well, have nothing better to do. Especially since even though it's a 2D game, it somehow absolutely needs the latest and greatest DirectX, so it won't run on that NT 4.0 workstation even if I wanted to play it at work. (How about just using the GDI for a 2D game, anyway? It's not like the game can even scroll more than in square increments, so it really makes zero difference if you can render 100 frames per second or just 10.)

Hey, I did say I'm immature and bored

[Libertarian]

Thus sayeth the Austrian Emperor, "Well, there 'tis."

[Ralf]

Originally posted by scientist
I will argue it is because Civ III is an inferior product in comparison to SMAC, especially in regards to innovation.

And I will argue the exact opposite opinion. Civ-3 is a wastly superior game, compared to SMAC - especially in terms of gameplay-innovation and general AI-improvement.

See - theres no such thing as "an objective viewpoint" then it comes to these things.

[Hoek]

I really don't understand why the "I love Civ 3" cult take it personally when people take Firaxis to issue on the game or their public relations. Time and again you prove yourselves unable to accept that maybe Firaxis screwed up. Maybe we shouldn't lick their boots when they tease us with scenario-making and mutliplaying capabilities. Why should people swamp threads with flames towards people critical of Firaxis or Infogrames? You obviously don't seem to want to have a good rapport with the established community (since the cult is heavily populated by newbies) because the first things we hear from you are always flames. You never seem to contribute anything to any conversation; all you can ever seem to say is "Civ 3 is the best and you suck." I really don't know why you waste your time making such useless posts. They don't do you any good, they don't do us any good, they don't do anyone any good.

[Moraelin]

Originally posted by Ralf And I will argue the exact opposite opinion. Civ-3 is a wastly superior game, compared to SMAC - especially in terms of gameplay-innovation and general AI-improvement.

THAT I have no problem with. If nothing else, it means you've got your money's worth out of it. That's good.

See - theres no such thing as "an objective viewpoint" then it comes to these things.

True, but we can still talk about it. After all, I might learn some of the things you like, and maybe I've missed. It is entirely possible that I've missed some of the finer points, or dismissed them as minor tweaks when they really make a whole world of a difference. It can happen.

Or it's simply possible that we like different kind of games. As I often say, if we all liked the exact same things, the world would be a rather boring place.

All I've been trying to say in this thread, is that IMHO this place would be better if we concentrated on what is good or bad about the game (or rather on what we subjectively liked or disliked), instead of debating who's a whiner, who's a troll, and who's a maggot. That's all. (And I'm not saying that you've done any of that. My beef is with completely other people.)

[Libertarian]

Hoek,

Flames? Useless posts?

Do you mean ones that use terms like "cult" or "lick their boots" or "newbies"? Such observations as "you never seem to contribute anything to any conversation"? That sort of thing?

[yin26]

I remember the Firaxis hosted forum in those days, and I don't remember it being anywhere as hostile as this one.

LOL! Could that be because they shut it down? Hilarious ...