Should production shields acumulate like in SMAC?

[lockstep]

Re: Should production shields acumulate like in SMAC?

Originally posted by Zealot
In SMAC you could have production shields accumulated to the next unit/improvement. In Civ 3 all the surplus is lost.

AFAIK, in SMAC only the first ten surplus shields were transferred to the next unit/improvement. The rest was lost, too. (Ten shields corresponded to the cost of the cheapest unit, BTW.)

To avoid multiplayer micromanagement nightmares in Civ3 (that is, while still providing multiplayer ), this SMAC feature is a must. I´d even suggest that any surplus shields in excess of ten should be converted to gold according to the player´s current ability to produce 'wealth' (i.e. in a ratio of 1:8 or 1:4).

[Zealot]

Re: Re: Should production shields acumulate like in SMAC?

Originally posted by lockstep
AFAIK, in SMAC only the first ten surplus shields were transferred to the next unit/improvement. The rest was lost, too. (Ten shields corresponded to the cost of the cheapest unit, BTW.)

Right! I forgot about that! But that's a good way to avoid an unbalanced factor.

[Zealot]

bump*

[rid102]

So I really don't see where there is the sillyness beside your own explanation!

Now, now... you'll go to bed without any supper if you keep up like that!

But that's a good way to avoid an unbalanced factor.

Would that be the same "unbalancing factor" that doesn't exist outside of my "sillyness"?

Agreed though.

A good "rule" would be to say that you can only carry over as many shields as the cost of the cheapest currently available unit. That way, it isn't fixed (you get your "Industrialisation" bonus) but is still balanced IMHO.

[Moraelin]

Just a couple of quick poins:

1) All units should be upgradable, and obsolete units shouldn't even appear in the list any more. I.e., by the time you have industrialization it shouldn't even be possible to produce Warriors, for love or money. So that problem becomes a bit impossible.

2) It is actually not only possible, but very easy, to prevent accumulating more than this turn's production minus the cost of finishing that unit. So if I produce 20 shields per turn, and make a Warrior, I'd have 19 shields acumulated. If the next turn I make one more warrior, I'd still end up with 19 shields acumulated, not 38. If I make 60 warriors, over 60 turns, and my city's shield production didn't change, you guessed, I'd still end up with 19 shields acumulated. Which isn't enough to build any wonder.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Moraelin
1) All units should be upgradable, and obsolete units shouldn't even appear in the list any more. I.e., by the time you have industrialization it shouldn't even be possible to produce Warriors, for love or money. So that problem becomes a bit impossible.

That would be great, even if what we are talking about in this thread isn't implemented in any future patch. But of course we want this implemented!

Originally posted by Moraelin
2) It is actually not only possible, but very easy, to prevent accumulating more than this turn's production minus the cost of finishing that unit. So if I produce 20 shields per turn, and make a Warrior, I'd have 19 shields acumulated. If the next turn I make one more warrior, I'd still end up with 19 shields acumulated, not 38. If I make 60 warriors, over 60 turns, and my city's shield production didn't change, you guessed, I'd still end up with 19 shields acumulated. Which isn't enough to build any wonder.

Didn't get it.

[Moraelin]

Hmm... lemme try to explain a bit better. (I know I'm very bad at explaining stuff, so please be patient with me)

The idea is that the extra shields can only accumulate for 1 turn. If they're not used in the next turn, they're discarded. So producing cheap stuff (like Scouts, which only cost 1 shield) for 100 turns straight doesn't mean you accumulate 2000 shields total. You still have only the extra ones from the last turn.

Actually an even better and straightforward idea is that you can never accumulate more shields than your city produces per turn. If I produce 20 shields per turn in a city, my city can never have more than 20 shields carried over to the next project. No matter for how many turns I've produced Wariors or Souts. If I only produce 15 shields per turn, I can never accumulate more than 15. And so on.

Basically on no project can you gain more than 1 turn, as a result of shields left over from the previous production.

[Boracks]

Hmm, I'd vote No but both of the no options have extra words added that don't apply.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Boracks

Hmm, I'd vote No but both of the no options have extra words added that don't apply.

Then you vote on the "Other" option, and explain what's on your mind about this subject!

[Zealot]

*bump*

[Ralf]

Originally posted by rid102
No, because by the Industrial/Modern period, cities tend to become stronger in production anyway. Giving production an extra bonus can and would lead to "runaway" scenarios where e.g. a city builds two or even three units per turn.

I agree with rid102.

This particular idea/problem was ventilated about a year ago, if I remember it correctly. I argued against it back then, and I havent changed my mind about it now either.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Ralf
I agree with rid102.

This particular idea/problem was ventilated about a year ago, if I remember it correctly. I argued against it back then, and I havent changed my mind about it now either.

But Ralf, I don't see this as a problem in any way! Industrious cities will have just a little more impact on the game than cities with few shields! In the number of surplus shields, of course.
Which were the arguments back then?

[Malleus]

Originally posted by rid102
Yes, I played SMAC... I wasn't aware though that it was some Holy Grail by which all other games are supposed to be measured though...

Ahhh...but it is...for very very good reason.

K

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Kromwel
Ahhh...but it is...for very very good reason.

K

Exactly. It became the standard for 4x turn based strategy games for the XXI century!

Right Kromwel?

[roadcage]

I propose a new tech called "Lean Production". Logically, it belongs a few techs after "Mass Production".

Lean production, consists of among other things, just in time inventory. Just in time inventory released (lazy) working capital tied up in raw materials, semi finished, and finished goods inventories that funded the 1990's boom.

Now how to implement in CivIII?

Carry forward shields to next project

Convert surplus shields via wealth.

Either would be acceptable, but I lean towards wealth.

roadcage