All this talk of Civ3 and CTP2...

[codemast01]

Originally posted by Venger
Anyone who has played them both, what do you find as the most notable contrasts between these two games?
Venger

Future Techs is something I always liked about civ games. Civ III lacks greatly in this department. (On the one hand they have the SDI system an a spaceship that goes to AC, clearly future techs, and on the other they claim civilization shouldn't have future techs)

Another obvious difference is public works. It's debatiable whether this is a good or bad difference.

Bombardment actually kills

The ability to trade units

Ground units that can attack air units. Something which I don't understand why Civ III ignores.

[napalm010]

Guess it's been way too long since I checked out the CTP2 forums Wes. Had no idea the work on your mods have continued. Now lets see, what box is my damn CTP2 cd and manual hiding in

[Venger]

Originally posted by adaMada
Venger: How much did CTP cost?

Got it for $30 at BestBuy. SMAC again was $2.

I love civ3, and it's woken up the old civer inside me -- I'm considering doing exactly what you did (picking up CTP/CTP2 and SMAC cheep) in a few months, when I'm not playing Civ 3 24/7 (not that I don't think I'll still be playing it then, just not as much).

I have to admit savage disappointment in Civ3, and this overwhelming desparation made me go looking for something else, kinda like finding out your girlfriend is really a man or something and hitting the bar to troll up anything with three holes..okay, I shouldn't have said that...

Anyway, let us know what you think! I'd really like to hear your oppinions, since I'm thinking about doing the exact same thing you are in a few months time...

Well, I haven't played yet, doing reading and feeling out the interface, but so far, so much of what should have been in Civ3 is in CTP2, including proper armies, key remapping (where has THIS been for God's sake? It's 2001 already, give us remappable keyboard shortcuts!), alot of goods, a sensible piracy model, alot of sensible techs, and in general, it looks like some thought went into it to enrich the whole experience. Alot of good wonders, though there are some headscratchers! It looks like it may be the real deal...

As some have mentioned, the proof may be in the AI pudding though...if the AI is dumb as a post, it will be for naught. A shame, because I see real potential in the game...

Venger

[Venger]

Originally posted by codemast01

Future Techs is something I always liked about civ games. Civ III lacks greatly in this department. (On the one hand they have the SDI system an a spaceship that goes to AC, clearly future techs, and on the other they claim civilization shouldn't have future techs)

Agreed, you hit a wall in CivX that simply makes no sense - at least TRY to give us a feel for some new technologies. Hell, my never released mod pack for Civ2 had:

Advanced Metallurgy
Artificial Intelligence
Siege Warfare
Force Coordination
Vectored Flight

And some cool units (Terminators for AI, MBTs and Fast Attack Subs for AM, etc...). Is it so hard to give us some gravy in the tech tree?

Another obvious difference is public works. It's debatiable whether this is a good or bad difference.

I've always been a workers guy, although 200 of them in Civ3 may have broken my spirit...

Bombardment actually kills

Yooohooo!

The ability to trade units

Another goodie...

Ground units that can attack air units. Something which I don't understand why Civ III ignores.

Civ2 wasn't good about this either, so the same never released modpack had AEGIS able to attack as well as an Mobile AAA Battery unit that had x2 defense against air and could also attack air units. It was tough though with the rules to make the AAA unit right though because it should have had a much higher attack against air than ground (though AAA guns have awesome AT an AI attack rates as well). Still, it allowed ground units (and AEGIS) to attack air units, which as you say, is something missing from the system...

Venger

[napalm010]

A ability for ground/naval units to attack/defend against air units would be very nice option. Unfortunately I do not believe it will be patched into Civ3 at all. If it is ever added, the best approach I see is giving all units a seperate stat for attack/defend against air units. Also a range like bombard currently does. This would allow creation of early AA units (range1). Also advanced systems (range 2, maybe 3).

If CTP2 had the AI of Civ3 it would be a showstopper.

But then so would Civ3, if it had the tech tree or public works of CTP2 . Late game gets very boring for me dealing with all those workers.

My other big dislike in Civ3 is the road system. Why have really great land graphics when all i will see is railroads after middle ages???

[jgflg]

Re: All this talk of Civ3 and CTP2...

Originally posted by Venger
Has made me check the reviews of each at Gamespot.

I recommend reading them both. If anyone can find why Civ3 rates a 9.2 and 7.2 then please point it out in the review. It's humerous to note that of user reviews, CTP2 is beating Civ3...

So I decided to look at the CTP2 screenshots...

Holy cow! First -

The game graphics are ugly...look at those farms and fishnets...yikes!

But after that...holy cow! A research pact? Wow! Armies! And you can name them, and move units in and out! Wow! Look at all those freaking Civs you can choose from! Holy cow, look at those armies in the field!! Aye carumba!

I think I'm gonna have to give it a shot...why the armies especially weren't included in Civ3 is strange indeed.

Venger

CTP2 is, without a doubt, more user friendly than Civ III. For example, the games go so much faster simply because you don't have to click a bunch of times on every unit to move them and your cities keep building the same units until you change the queue. The same goes for having Public Works vs. Workers, but you could argue that it's just as tedious managing land squares as workers. In Civ III sometimes 3/4 of my turn is simply moving units from A to B.

But the AI is absolutely horrendous, pretty much non-existent. It's almost like you're playing against yourself. I haven't tried it with any of the user mods though.

And you can choose from a lot of civs, but there is no difference between them except in name.

[Monoriu]

Originally posted by Venger


Anyone who has played them both, what do you find as the most notable contrasts between these two games?

Venger

K. I have played and beaten them all on their toughest level, civ 1, civ 2, SMAC, CTP1, CTP2, civ 3. Only exception is I am still trying to beat civ 3 Deity.

Overall, civ 2, civ 3 or SMAC definitely beats any CTP game. But I have the say CTP games have a lot of good ideas that the civ series should consider.

First, CTP series has more of everything. More units, more government types, more city improvements, and more wonders. However, they are not very balanced. Especially with CTP 1. Some of the wonders are horribly balanced and having/not having ONE wonder can make or break your game. CTP 2 does a better job but the problem is still there.

Public works. Really a matter of personal taste. PW is faster, simpler, less tedius, but I like moving workers/settlers around to do stuff.

AI: Sorry, CTP2 AI sucks, plain and simple. In CTP2, I make one army, keep reinforcing it, and it can take over the world with little or no thinking behind if I keep up the reinforcements. That's the problem with armies: its fast, its simple, but its too easy. The AI is passive, won't make trouble with you if you stay low. Simply said, it only knows how to build up a few cities, send some units toward you mindlessly when at war, and sit there to be slaughtered 95% of the time.

Performance: yes CTP games are much better. Game goes faster, and generally less micro-management.

Special units: lawyers, terrorists, slavers, clerics, etc. I hate them, that's the primary reason I hate CTP. They are invisible, they are annoying, the AI keep sending the same lawyers to the same city every 3 turns.....you get the idea.

Future era: this is a strong point of CTP: space cities (only in CTP1 I think), underwater cities, A LOT of new techs and futuristic units. I like them, and I hope a future expansion of civ 3 will include new eras......

Armies: already talked about them. One thing it sucks is the stacking limit. I forgot what the limit is but I think its 12 or 15 in CTP 2. Say if you have a 15 unit army, you cannot move it to any hex if that hex already has 1 unit.

Pollution: you can turn off pollution in CTP, which is nice.

Bugs: if you think civ 3 is buggy, don't bother playing CTP. Crashed on me quite a few times.

Interface: Major problem in CTP1. Considerably improved in CTP2 but still clearly inferior to civ's interface. Difficulty to figure out the controls and have to click several layers down to get what I want. Lack of summary screens.

Global controls: Lots more global controls in CTP games. You can control stuff like mobolization level, working hours, food supply level, etc.

Combat problems: Hahaha I still remember my disbelief and frustration when the AIs 3 pikemen shot down errr knocked down my STEALTH BOMBER in CTP1. Pretty long pikes I say. CTP1 did an absolutely horrible job whereby a 9 unit army will have a 100% chance to defeat a 3 unit army, no matter what those units are. That's insane even for someone like me who can tolerate the occasional spearmen vs tank thingie in civ 3. CTP 2 does a much better job, however.

CTP2 does have some good stuff, but overall its not impressive. If only we can have the best of both worlds......

[genghisvick]

CTP2 is pure crap. It doesn't have the longevity that Civ III will have.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Venger
Just bought CTP2. Will give it a whirl and check into the CTP2 forums here on Apolyton (assuming there are some!). IT will be interesting to see how Activisions second post Civ2 game compares with Firaxis' first...

Also, picked up SMAC for $1.99...hey, why not, I only played the original (copy) once, why not give the fully patched item a whirl...

Venger

does that mean you will stop posting in civ3 general for a while?

[Fidel]

ctp games are some of the worst games ever released. i really reccomend venger to play ctp without any patches and mods and then come back here and explain us just how broken a game can be


it had more of everything and it all sucked. i hated space cities, i hated water cities, futuristic BS, idiotic overpowered bombard units that killed everything, pathetic AI, building cities exclusively on tundra, moronic power bars (wow, these russkies look powerful until you actually see that they are a 5 cities island civ with a GDP of somalia). those 50 civs really sucked, i always ended up playing against polynesians and welsh and similar megacivs. what fun is it to crush scottish civ (unless you are an englishman)? what fun is it to destroy cuban civ (unless you are an miami cuban expat)?

on the systems availiable at that time, the game was painfully slow. of course it runs smoothly now. civ2 dragged on my comp when i bought it, later it blitzed. that's the way it is....

[Proteus_MST]

I really liked the Tech-Tree, Public Works and all the futuristic Units in CTP and CTP 2.
Same about Space Cities and Ocean Cities. I was sad, that CTP 2 had no Space Cities anymore.

I Think a game which would include Elements from Civ 3 (Cultural Borders, Diplomacy Menu, strong AI, Ressources [strategic, Luxuries and Bonus]) and CTP (Ocean and/or Space Cities, futuristic Units and Technologies, Public Works, Special Units like Lawyers or Corporates) would be a true Killer Game.
Only about one thing I´m not sure which is better. Other than Civ1-3 CTP had expandig City Radii and no laborers.
At the Beginning when the City was founded its Radius would span only the 8 Fields next to it and would with rising Population rise until it would enclose tiles in a distance of up to 4 tiles from the city. You also hadn´t assign Laborers to work on the tiles but your City would gain a certain percentage of all Production in all the tiles within the City Radius dependend on the Population of the city.
Dunno. On the one hand a predetermined City Radius like in Civ has its advantages. You can better place your Cities. And by placing your Laborers you can determine if your City is more Production oriented or more oriented towards the growth of the city. But it´s also nice to see your City-Radius rise.

btw.
First post from me in this Forum

[Fidel]

for posting in an existing thread and not starting a new one

as for CTP features...well obviously some loathe the very things some people really like.....

[Ludwig]

CtP2 has many problems, and I won't reiterate the ones already mentioned here.

But one critical one no one has mentioned, Venger, [and, given your famous dislike for the CivIII combat system, I think it bears mentioning] is that once you figure the combat system out, you will be frustrated by your ability to win virtually any conflict with virtually any units.

The combination of the CtP army-stacking system and the CtP2 optional-retreat system makes it impossible for a good player to even lose a unit, as long as they keep alert and keep the initiative. This is true almost irregardless of tech level.

For those who haven't played it, the CtP2 retreat system is optional, not automatic like the CivIII system, and all units are retreat-capable, not just the mobile ones. This means, as a practical matter, that if you assemble your units into two or three armies, you can simply advance, attack, damage the enemy, and retreat as soon as you take sufficient damage to make you worry about losing ANY of your units. You then attack with a different army. Repeat this process until all enemy units are dead. You will have some damaged front-line units, but your flanker and bombardment units will be as fresh as daisies, and the magic-rest system makes all your units whole as soon as they end their turn in a city anyway...After the first two times I played CtP2, I played entire games without losing a unit.

The AI, by the way, is not smart enough to do this to YOU, nor is he smart enough to respond to it with defense in depth or timely counterattacks. And the mod's made the AI less passive but they didn't address his tactical deficiencies, because that really can't be done without changing the fundamental rules of the game.

Just my two cents.

[Christmann]

Yeah... this thread got me wanting to play CTP2 again. Then I realized I had misplaced it. "Oh well, it's only £10 at amazon...". But then I searched around to see what kind of scenarios there are; I only played civ2 for the scens. Well, except for the lame ww2 scen from activision and a couple of nice looking user-made ancient ones, there aren't any. 3-4 scenarios just doesn't cut it for me. No CTP2 for me....

[Moraelin]

Christmann, as opposed to... what? To Civ 3 which doesn't even have ANY scenarios, AT ALL? Gee, that's got to be an improvement over CTP2. No, really.

Also CTP2 shipped with some pretty good script language, which allowed the people to do some really good modding. As a very basic example, when Firaxis announced that Civ 3 will allow people to raze a city regardless of size, a CTP 2 fan just made a quick script file that added the exact same function to that game.

Civ 3, by the looks of it, is at most going to get a few extra units in mods, but no real function changes ever. In fact, if it were only by the lame supplied editor, you couldn't even add ANYTHING new, just change stats on what's already there. (Thanks to whoever hacked that lame editor.)

The AI in CTP 2 isn't necessarily bad, it's just unrealistically peaceful. If you don't really annoy someone, they'll tend to leave you be. (And even that can be changed.)

The stealth units are only a nuisance if you don't build your own stealth units. Just keep an abolitionist fortified in your city, and you'll see all those lawyers, slavers and stuff before they can get anywhere near you. Then an artillery unit takes care of the rest.

The combat maybe shouldn't have had that retreat button. But lemme state the obvious: noone forces you to use that retreat button. If you want more challenge, just decide for yourself that you'll never retreat. I haven't ever retreated from a fight in CTP2 yet.