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  • WTH is so special about the AI?

    No, really. You made me curious. I keep reading about how the AI kicks ass, and I have to wonder if there's a different version of Civ 3 that those people are playing. Or whether it's just that "the AI is smart" sounds better than "I totally suck at the game, and got my rear handed to me even by the dumbest computer player in history."

    Lemme see:

    1) The AI will cheerfully build and send forward the most obsolete units it can possibly build. (Just look at how YOUR governors always want to build longbowmen and galleons, even in the 20'th century. The AI does just that.)

    2) It also doesn't seem to apply _any_ combined arms strategy. Just sends everything that-a-way, and let the devil sort them. Each war I've had consisted just of a huge stream of individual units. (And obsolete ones at that.)

    3) The only saving grace it has is that the whole game rewards mediocrity and mindless clicking, so even a dumb AI has a chance. Swordsmen and archers can defeat tanks anyway, so the AI can just cheerfully send an endless stream of swordsmen and archers at you. No matter how obsolete they are, the f***ed up combat system means they still can win.

    4) Ditto for the science stuff. The whole system, complete with the max and min turn caps, means that no matter what, you can't fall behind too much technologically. Which is exactly what happens to the AI. Most of the time any AI opponent doesn't even build universities and research labs, it has a couple of libraries in the whole empire, is still a despotism (i.e., max 50% research), and has half the cities that I have. Yet it's only 2-3 tech levels behind me, whereas in Civ 2 it would still be researching iron working. (Not that it even matters, since it will send obsolete units anyway.) Again, it's not really been playing any better, it's just that the game system didn't let it fall too much behind.

    5) It will mindlessly lose those hordes of obsolete units in wars all the way across the world. There'll always be a steady stream of units through my lands, because the Germans want to fight the Egyptians who are that-a-way, and the French want to fight the Russians, which are all the way over there.

    6) Which brings us to another point, which is that the AI doesn't seem to even be aware of borders at all. Neither his, nor mine. It will cheerfully cross through my lands all the time, AND it will only object to my troops if they end up exactly adjacent to its cities. As long as I stay one square or two away from its cities, all's well. Briefly, the AI still thinks he's playing Civ 2 without borders. It's as if whoever coded the AI and whoever coded borders never even spoke to each other, much less try to coordinate their parts.

    7) And to another point: that the AI never seems to have trouble holding on to a city all the way across the map. (Whereas for me corruption would mean I lose money just for having that city in my empire.)

    8) It never seems to build too many improvements to its cities, presumably on account that it's always busy building obsolete troops instead. Most of the time I can see AI cities that are 100 turns old, but still have no cultural radius of their own. You'd think it could manage such concepts as "let's build a mighty economy to support our war machine and THEN conquer those pesky Babylonians, that aren't even my neighbours." Nope, it just stays stuck in an endless cycle of "must build more offensive units" and "got offensive units, must attack someone. Anyone."

    9) It doesn't seem to fully master the concept of aliances, either. Situations where someone fights their allies' allies are more of a rule, than an exception.

    And so on, and so forth.

  • #2
    Re: WTH is so special about the AI?

    Originally posted by Moraelin
    1) The AI will cheerfully build and send forward the most obsolete units it can possibly build. (Just look at how YOUR governors always want to build longbowmen and galleons, even in the 20'th century. The AI does just that.)

    3) The only saving grace it has is that the whole game rewards mediocrity and mindless clicking, so even a dumb AI has a chance. Swordsmen and archers can defeat tanks anyway, so the AI can just cheerfully send an endless stream of swordsmen and archers at you. No matter how obsolete they are, the f***ed up combat system means they still can win.
    you just answered your own question

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: WTH is so special about the AI?

      Originally posted by Moraelin
      No, really. You made me curious. I keep reading about how the AI kicks ass, and I have to wonder if there's a different version of Civ 3 that those people are playing. Or whether it's just that "the AI is smart" sounds better than "I totally suck at the game, and got my rear handed to me even by the dumbest computer player in history."

      Lemme see:

      1) The AI will cheerfully build and send forward the most obsolete units it can possibly build. (Just look at how YOUR governors always want to build longbowmen and galleons, even in the 20'th century. The AI does just that.)

      2) It also doesn't seem to apply _any_ combined arms strategy. Just sends everything that-a-way, and let the devil sort them. Each war I've had consisted just of a huge stream of individual units. (And obsolete ones at that.)

      3) The only saving grace it has is that the whole game rewards mediocrity and mindless clicking, so even a dumb AI has a chance. Swordsmen and archers can defeat tanks anyway, so the AI can just cheerfully send an endless stream of swordsmen and archers at you. No matter how obsolete they are, the f***ed up combat system means they still can win.

      4) Ditto for the science stuff. The whole system, complete with the max and min turn caps, means that no matter what, you can't fall behind too much technologically. Which is exactly what happens to the AI. Most of the time any AI opponent doesn't even build universities and research labs, it has a couple of libraries in the whole empire, is still a despotism (i.e., max 50% research), and has half the cities that I have. Yet it's only 2-3 tech levels behind me, whereas in Civ 2 it would still be researching iron working. (Not that it even matters, since it will send obsolete units anyway.) Again, it's not really been playing any better, it's just that the game system didn't let it fall too much behind.

      5) It will mindlessly lose those hordes of obsolete units in wars all the way across the world. There'll always be a steady stream of units through my lands, because the Germans want to fight the Egyptians who are that-a-way, and the French want to fight the Russians, which are all the way over there.

      6) Which brings us to another point, which is that the AI doesn't seem to even be aware of borders at all. Neither his, nor mine. It will cheerfully cross through my lands all the time, AND it will only object to my troops if they end up exactly adjacent to its cities. As long as I stay one square or two away from its cities, all's well. Briefly, the AI still thinks he's playing Civ 2 without borders. It's as if whoever coded the AI and whoever coded borders never even spoke to each other, much less try to coordinate their parts.

      7) And to another point: that the AI never seems to have trouble holding on to a city all the way across the map. (Whereas for me corruption would mean I lose money just for having that city in my empire.)

      8) It never seems to build too many improvements to its cities, presumably on account that it's always busy building obsolete troops instead. Most of the time I can see AI cities that are 100 turns old, but still have no cultural radius of their own. You'd think it could manage such concepts as "let's build a mighty economy to support our war machine and THEN conquer those pesky Babylonians, that aren't even my neighbours." Nope, it just stays stuck in an endless cycle of "must build more offensive units" and "got offensive units, must attack someone. Anyone."

      9) It doesn't seem to fully master the concept of aliances, either. Situations where someone fights their allies' allies are more of a rule, than an exception.

      And so on, and so forth.
      I have to say, amen to nearly all you said. The trouble for the AI is that it's always playing the same, and seems not able to switch from "upgrade cities" to "build a big army and let's make this war as short as possible" and vice-versa. So it ends doing always half producting units, half improving cities, without being able to do one of them well.
      And I VASTLY approve the cheesy attempt to hide the AI ineptitude by boosting the weak ones and put restraints on the biggest. Sure it helps having a more balanced world, but it's frustrating as hell.
      Did someone told "it should be optionnal" ?
      Science without conscience is the doom of the soul.

      Comment


      • #4
        Agreed. I cannot for the life of me comprehend why those dolts at Firaxis have been unable to replicate a human brain, a genius one, with computer subroutines. After all, Microsoft has done it routinely. As evidence, I offer the Word companion and wizard, Mr. Paper Clip.
        "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

        Comment


        • #5
          Don't do that Dave......

          "Dr. Chandra please report to Firaxis with the Blue Prints for the HAL 9000."

          Civ3 AI is no HAL, but it is much better than Civ2 and SMAC.

          When I quit my game last night I had 32 Samurai standing outside my city . The AI is a much more able foe.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Libertarian
            Agreed. I cannot for the life of me comprehend why those dolts at Firaxis have been unable to replicate a human brain, a genius one, with computer subroutines. After all, Microsoft has done it routinely. As evidence, I offer the Word companion and wizard, Mr. Paper Clip.
            Yes for God's sake...If it only took IBM 10 years and Millions $$ designing a computer to defeat the second rate Chess Master Casparov ... why on earth can't Fraxis implement a half-decent AI.

            COME ON FRAXIS...PULL YOUR FINGER OUT
            tis better to be thought stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

            6 years lurking, 5 minutes posting

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Re: WTH is so special about the AI?

              Originally posted by Akka le Vil


              I have to say, amen to nearly all you said. The trouble for the AI is that it's always playing the same, and seems not able to switch from "upgrade cities" to "build a big army and let's make this war as short as possible" and vice-versa. So it ends doing always half producting units, half improving cities, without being able to do one of them well.
              And I VASTLY approve the cheesy attempt to hide the AI ineptitude by boosting the weak ones and put restraints on the biggest. Sure it helps having a more balanced world, but it's frustrating as hell.
              Did someone told "it should be optionnal" ?
              The only thing I have seen that is smart from the ai is that it will try to pillage your roads to resources, but its not even fully smart with that, say it pillages some iron in mountains, next turn it will move the unit from that square so you can take it back, and if you protect your resources with forts and units, the ai can't do much of anything.

              Weak units are not boosted they work exactly as the game intends. They work just as well for you if you use them so there is nothing cheesy about that, AND your newer units still work better(on average, which is good IMO, I like a little chance) than their older units. There is no reason that this should be optional, if you don't want this to happen you can edit the hp's for the units in the game so that the chance of an 'upset' becomes infinitesimally small.

              Comment


              • #8
                He has a point and your silly analogies aren't really helping.

                None of the items on his list are subject to technology ceilings and the gripes are pure playtesting and balancing gripes.

                Clearly this game didn't get enough playtesting and balancing and it is showing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Helping what?. His points are utterly unoriginal and have been discussed to death. Firaxis can't win with these people. Release it, and all hell breaks loose. Wait, and the same crap.

                  Already, there are threads cropping up screaming, "Where's the damn patch!? Hurry up!" Jackasses.
                  "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What i hate most with the AI is that it have to build cities EVERYWHERE. Tundra and deserts does´nt mean a thing to it, it just build cities there all the time.
                    This might not be so bad in a normal game (does´nt matter much), but in a scenario this will really really suck. Sahara will be fulled up with cities because the AI only care about building cities there and nothing else.

                    Another hateful thing is the very idiotic and unlogical possibility to exchange connections. In history, a civ between to civs would earn from both, now it does´nt matter.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by KaiserIsak
                      What i hate most with the AI is that it have to build cities EVERYWHERE. Tundra and deserts does´nt mean a thing to it, it just build cities there all the time.
                      This might not be so bad in a normal game (does´nt matter much), but in a scenario this will really really suck. Sahara will be fulled up with cities because the AI only care about building cities there and nothing else.

                      Another hateful thing is the very idiotic and unlogical possibility to exchange connections. In history, a civ between to civs would earn from both, now it does´nt matter.
                      Frankly I don't see the point. In a scenario one isn't supposed to build new cities, does it?

                      For example, in a WWII scenario no one should be able to build any new city and during the making of the scenario via the editor this option should be avaible (I guess).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Nexus VI
                        For example, in a WWII scenario no one should be able to build any new city and during the making of the scenario via the editor this option should be avaible (I guess).
                        In this scenario u could remove the settler unit, therfore not allowing them to build new cities
                        Im sorry Mr Civ Franchise, Civ3 was DOA

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KaiserIsak
                          What i hate most with the AI is that it have to build cities EVERYWHERE. Tundra and deserts does´nt mean a thing to it, it just build cities there all the time.
                          This might not be so bad in a normal game (does´nt matter much), but in a scenario this will really really suck. Sahara will be fulled up with cities because the AI only care about building cities there and nothing else.

                          Another hateful thing is the very idiotic and unlogical possibility to exchange connections. In history, a civ between to civs would earn from both, now it does´nt matter.
                          Another example of Civ2 thinking. Quite often, in Civ3, desert and tundra are the most propitious land available. Lots of strategic resources on these tiles. Read Vel's thread.
                          "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            i dont know what the AI is being compared to here but i think its certainly an improvement on CivII. i got invaded by Persia last night - they bombed my coastal cities (i couldnt stop them because of the bug!) and then landed tanks. kicked my arse.

                            the romans on the other hand were fielding out dated units, but then again so was i - i coulnt afford to update them. maybe the AI couldnt thats why youre seeing old units??

                            the only thing i really hate is the implementation of the borders. i just had a roman settler build a city in the 2 square space between the borders of my capital and my second biggest city. and this is in the 1100s. thats rediculous. its like King Richard waking up one morning and finding Marseille a mile outside london.....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think it's being compared to some nonexistent, science-fiction version of AI. Something envisioned by someone who learned how to write "Hello World" in VB and now calls himself a programmer.
                              "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

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