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  • Anyone uninstalled Civ III yet?

    ...I have.
    I haven't played any of the previous versions so I got this one with some expectations of an interesting, challenging strategy game. I am very disappointed. I'd go so far to say that for me, Firaxis have damaged their reputation with this release. The more cynical amongst us might look at the release date, do some calculations and reckon that the patched version will be on the shelves for the Christmas rush, having been play-tested by the few thousand early adopters...

    The game is flawed. It's not just the bugs that knock SOUND.DLL over every so often, or the fatal redraw errors with the (admittedly very pretty) graphics or even the cheap and cheesy comments the game puts into the mouths of the other leaders.

    I believe the random number generator implementation to be flawed. This particularly affects combat. The way the random seeding works, entire portions of the game are predetermined. I also believe this implementation leads to a phenomena of long stringsof outcomes that would be statistically unlikely in the real world (think 50 heads out of 50 coin tosses). Such a claim is obviously difficult to prove, so I have to leave that in the realms of faith.


    But the final straws were in a game on a huge map. I was engaged in an interesting war with the Romans; fairly evenly matched but I was making progress...then the following occurred (not in sequence)

    A legionary wandered onto my saltpetre resource. I imagine that he was going to pillage the improvement to cut me off from it. It was on a mountain square. I moved 3 artillery units by rail into a nearby city and started a bombard. First unit: -2HP; second unit -1HP. The Roman unit has 1 red bar left. My 3rd bombard does not damage the Roman unit; instead it destroys the improvment on the square, thus cutting myself off from my saltpetre resource...I believe this is a bug. I have noted also that when bombarding naval units, you CANNOT bombard a unit that only has a single HP left. Artillery does 0, 1 or 2 HP damage in a turn so the Roman unit should have gone first. I can live with the idea that bombardment can damage territory, but not when there is an enemy unit on the square.

    In fact, this legionary would have been impregnable if it had stayed where it was - fortified on a mountain. The only way I could touch it was with artillery and that wouldn't work to eliminate the unit. But the AI seems to want to move severly damaged units out of enemy territory...

    Then...my Army of ELITE infantry (3 units) moved against a veteran cavalry unit. My army went from green to red in one turn. On the next turn, the cavalry unit, also with 1 HP attacked and defeated my army. This is a nonsense.

    The Indians then invented a time machine. I kid you not. On one turn, a Roman elite cavalry unity took 2 artillery from me. On the next turn, my elite infantry took it back. As soon as I won the battle, screen focus shifted from my unit to the middle of the Indian empire (where I had no units or interest), then shifted back. On the next turn, guess what? My two artillery units had gone back to Roman control and the elite cavalry was back on the scene. It was deja vu all over again.

    Then just for the hell of it, I threw my veteran immortal unit against an elite roman legionary in a size 2 city. And won the city. This is also a nonsense (although one that I prefer...)

    The AI is not logical. I offered to settle with Rome for peace and they told me to get lost. On the next turn, Rome offered me a peace deal.

    These were the last straws. Someone from Firaxis commented on "emergent behaviour". I'd like to point out that bugs are an emergent property of software and not all emergent behaviour is good or correct.

    For a game of strategy to be enjoyable, it must be logical and consistent. If the game, as Civ III does with its references to history, technology and natural resources, claims to reflect some aspects of the real world, the player must be able to transfer what they know about the real world into the game. Battleships should defeat frigates; wounded cavalry should not be able to take out armies etc etc. If the player cannot make a logical transferrence in this way, the game reduces to the random manipulation of numbers, albeit with a fancy graphical portrayal of the results. That is the worst of gameplay - an attempt to seduce the player into some artificial reality where the way to succeed is to exploit the quirks of the implementation.
    DRM

  • #2
    If I needed the space for other things I would....

    /dev

    Comment


    • #3
      I kinda agree with you, drmofe, even though I enjoy Civ 3. It´s a pretty good game but the AI ain´t logical or consistent. It´s just as bad as in Civ1/Civ2. But I really don´t think you should whine just because you got whacked in a war. :-)
      The main reason for why I won´t be playing this game for much longer is that it´s so damn slow. I enjoy long games but I´m not interested in waiting for a couple of minutes for the AI to finish it´s turn. This is a fact and I can´t see how anyone would do it just for fun.
      I´ll play Civ3 until the release of Europa Universalis 2 - most likely a by far better game!

      Comment


      • #4
        It sounds like you are overanalyzing

        I wish you could find the enjoyment in the game that I have found, but you are getting stuck on very small details here. About the preset conditions: A military victory is not always necessary to win, and neither are resources. I think the important part you are missing from Civ3 is that if you do not have one thing, you have to supplement for the other. If you don't have the resources to make your civilization better, you may have to launch a war or spend more time dealing with diplomacy to gain technological supremacy. If your civilization is founded on a large stretch of desert, perhaps you should have moved your settler to a better location before founding your starting city, although this too could be a setback.

        About the units:

        War is unpredictable in the real world. Throughout history many crazy things have happened. The game is not totally perfect either, but not all games ship perfect on release. The bombardment not killing off units was to make sure artillery units were not overpowered. If you could kill off units with artillery you would never need to produce attack units, and could simply use defensive units and a massive army of artillery to win.

        Just because your units are modern does not mean you can count on them to win every single time. You may need to do surgical strikes with artillery and flight when dealing with a vast army of obsolete units.

        The bug with sound may be related to your sound card drivers or operating system. I am using WindowsXP and a soundblaster live and have experienced no error.

        Comment


        • #5
          Sounds to me like you're pissed because you got owned by the AI, lol.

          Comment


          • #6
            Firaxis has made some choices. Like excluding the bombardment-to-kill from civ3. In civ2 the best attack unit was a howitzer! A tank was less useful. Now that is unrealistic! To totally wipe out a unit you need ground forces. Just look at Afghanistan, the air force can weaken the Taliban, but the Northern Alliance must use ground forces to take them out.

            They also wanted to balance the units in such a way to prevent the more modern units (which need resources) to be too powerful against obsolete units. So if you don't have access to resources, you are not immediately lost.

            I am not saying I fully agree with their choices. Like the privateer. They made it too weak. It should have an attack value of 2!
            Member of Official Apolyton Realistic Civers Club.
            If you can't solve it, it's not a problem--it's reality
            "All is well your excellency, and that pleases me mightily"

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Anyone uninstalled Civ III yet?

              Originally posted by drmofe
              ...I have.
              I haven't, but played something else the last 2 days to keep Civ from going stale.

              The game is flawed. It's not just the bugs that knock SOUND.DLL over every so often, or the fatal redraw errors with the (admittedly very pretty) graphics
              those are hardware specific and are exactly the sort of things that the patch will be aiming to fix.

              or even the cheap and cheesy comments the game puts into the mouths of the other leaders.
              I agree

              I believe the random number generator implementation to be flawed. This particularly affects combat. The way the random seeding works, entire portions of the game are predetermined. I also believe this implementation leads to a phenomena of long stringsof outcomes that would be statistically unlikely in the real world (think 50 heads out of 50 coin tosses). Such a claim is obviously difficult to prove, so I have to leave that in the realms of faith.
              Some people report crazy streaks in the generator. Others like me have seen unlucky results like one elite tank losing to a 1hp conscript rifleman per game but never streaks that go beyond all bounds of chance. Perhaps again this may be partly hardware dependant. The random number tables aren't held inthe game code, after all.

              A legionary wandered onto my saltpetre resource. I imagine that he was going to pillage the improvement to cut me off from it. It was on a mountain square. I moved 3 artillery units by rail into a nearby city and started a bombard. First unit: -2HP; second unit -1HP. The Roman unit has 1 red bar left. My 3rd bombard does not damage the Roman unit; instead it destroys the improvment on the square, thus cutting myself off from my saltpetre resource...I believe this is a bug. I have noted also that when bombarding naval units, you CANNOT bombard a unit that only has a single HP left. Artillery does 0, 1 or 2 HP damage in a turn so the Roman unit should have gone first. I can live with the idea that bombardment can damage territory, but not when there is an enemy unit on the square.
              The game is functioning as designed. Artillery cannot remove the last hit point of any unit. So when, and only when, the unit has reached 1hp, the damage can pass through and destroy tile improvements. If it is not your intention to destroy the improvement, you should just stop bombing at the appropriate point.

              In fact, this legionary would have been impregnable if it had stayed where it was - fortified on a mountain. The only way I could touch it was with artillery and that wouldn't work to eliminate the unit.
              Well 1hp is not impossible to remove but he sure picked a good spot to defend.

              Then...my Army of ELITE infantry (3 units) moved against a veteran cavalry unit. My army went from green to red in one turn. On the next turn, the cavalry unit, also with 1 HP attacked and defeated my army. This is a nonsense.
              It is certainly unlikely. If you specified what terrain the cav was on we could figure out how unlikely.

              The Indians then invented a time machine. I kid you not. On one turn, a Roman elite cavalry unity took 2 artillery from me. On the next turn, my elite infantry took it back. As soon as I won the battle, screen focus shifted from my unit to the middle of the Indian empire (where I had no units or interest), then shifted back. On the next turn, guess what? My two artillery units had gone back to Roman control and the elite cavalry was back on the scene. It was deja vu all over again.
              looks like a rare bug

              Then just for the hell of it, I threw my veteran immortal unit against an elite roman legionary in a size 2 city. And won the city. This is also a nonsense (although one that I prefer...)
              The odds in favour of the legionary are not great. I fail to understand why you think this was so nonsensical.

              The AI is not logical. I offered to settle with Rome for peace and they told me to get lost. On the next turn, Rome offered me a peace deal.
              If you ask for peace "because you have overstretched yourself" you often get a deal when the same one "because we are about to crush you" will be angrily refused. It is about the leaders saving face and very reminiscent of real world politics.

              For a game of strategy to be enjoyable, it must be logical and consistent. If the game, as Civ III does with its references to history, technology and natural resources, claims to reflect some aspects of the real world, the player must be able to transfer what they know about the real world into the game. Battleships should defeat frigates; wounded cavalry should not be able to take out armies etc etc. If the player cannot make a logical transferrence in this way, the game reduces to the random manipulation of numbers, albeit with a fancy graphical portrayal of the results. That is the worst of gameplay - an attempt to seduce the player into some artificial reality where the way to succeed is to exploit the quirks of the implementation.
              DRM
              Hmm. All boardgames and computer games are about numbers. Almost all of them involve elements of chance. I can understand why you might not like it but the only reason Civ is different to any other is it atempts to portray 6000 years of history with a broad brush so the disparities are sometimes more evident.
              To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
              H.Poincaré

              Comment


              • #8
                I can own the AI. Beat Emperor my first try. The game is dull, boring, tedious, poorly made and horribly ... no, irresponsibly ... supported both by the developer and the publisher. It's for rookies and people who will play anything and everything to kill a few hours but for some ungodly reason haven't yet stumbled upon any of a thousand better games.

                You'd be better of simply staring at static on your t.v. screen trying too look for patterns.
                I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

                "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by yin26
                  It's for rookies and people who will play anything and everything to kill a few hours but for some ungodly reason haven't yet stumbled upon any of a thousand better games.
                  Could you please post the names of - lets say the top 100 - games that are better than CIV3? I would like to try some!
                  Don't panic - Just count to ten, THEN panic!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by yin26
                    You'd be better of simply staring at static on your t.v. screen trying too look for patterns.
                    May be this is a little too much on the desperate side, isn't it?

                    If you don't mind, I'll play "Klondike solitaire" on my Palm III, instead of watching static.
                    "We are reducing all the complexity of billions of people over 6000 years into a Civ box. Let me say: That's not only a PkZip effort....it's a real 'picture to Jpeg heavy loss in translation' kind of thing."
                    - Admiral Naismith

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Could you please post the names of - lets say the top 100 - games that are better than CIV3? I would like to try some!
                      Solitaire. The first 100 times you play it.
                      I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

                      "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Anyone uninstalled Civ III yet?

                        Originally posted by drmofe
                        I believe the random number generator implementation to be flawed. This particularly affects combat. The way the random seeding works, entire portions of the game are predetermined. I also believe this implementation leads to a phenomena of long stringsof outcomes that would be statistically unlikely in the real world (think 50 heads out of 50 coin tosses). Such a claim is obviously difficult to prove, so I have to leave that in the realms of faith.
                        Eh? I would think that Civ3 uses the same random number generation system that all computer programs using random number use. Why would they use anything else? I started a thread devoted to this topic, and from the data I gathered, the random number generator seems to be working fine.

                        I don't follow your argument about the predetermination of the random numbers. So they're pre-determined, so what? All "random" numbers on a computer are predetermined based on the seed entered into the random number generator. If you use the same seed, you get the same sequence of random numbers.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by yin26
                          I can own the AI. Beat Emperor my first try. The game is dull, boring, tedious, poorly made and horribly ... no, irresponsibly ... supported both by the developer and the publisher. It's for rookies and people who will play anything and everything to kill a few hours but for some ungodly reason haven't yet stumbled upon any of a thousand better games.

                          You'd be better of simply staring at static on your t.v. screen trying too look for patterns.
                          Yin26 - Your opinion of CIV III seems to have fallen since your review thread (which was somewhat 'less harsh' toward the game, since it was based upon expectations). What has caused this?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ciilization 3 have been rewarded with mostly 90+ magazine-review scores; some few and far between 80-90% scores, and none (or extremely few) below 80% scores. That type of official game-magazine/ game web-site reception really speaks for itself.

                            Personally, I think its a great game, with even greater potential, once its properly patched up & complemented with a beefy addon-package.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It seems that some people are playing CIV3 under a unstable system! I never encountered any crash after 30 hours! All is working perfectly. Is it really a CIVIII issue?

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