New Post from Dan@FIRAXIS at CivFanatics.com

[War4ever]

Yin its not that were annoying ..... were just demanding.....

as for the game...there are great concepts, but most of these r not implemented to make them work to their full capabilities

the air superiority bug isn't about a bug free game...its about them telling us they playtested the game when obviously they didn't . There are not alot of modern units to use so i fail to understand how this one slipped through the cracks....

the problem with releasing the game without beta testing is that there will only be so many patches....don't beta tests usually last for quite awhile.... if this is so then what we deem to be our first patch would have already been fixed....

instead our first patch will fix some things..... and then there will still be issues...and who really knows how long firaxis will support the game for.....

BETA tests should be mandatory...or at the very least a demo.....

its been 10yrs since the greatest game ever was launched (well the concept anyways) and i feel as though firaxis has showed their immaturity as a co. by releasing a game so horrible riddled with exploits and bugs.... i expected this from Activision not the living legen SID......

That aside..i too wait for a patch which may correct a few things and hopefully balance a too easy game with the civilization moniker....

[fanatic civver]

Civ 3 is hardly full of bugs. Have any of you played a truly bugged game on first release?

I have had only one crash after more than 20 hours of playing time, and that was when I inadvertently opened the editor at the same time that civ 3 was running.

The editor may be full of bugs, but I have never used it so I wouldnt know

But as Akka le Vil said, with an unmodified civ 3 there are very few technical bugs.

[reds4ever]

I had no idea that CivIII was even in developement until I saw it in the store. Call me uninformed but I don't spend a lot of time reading boards and such on the internet, I play Civ. When I see a product in a store, for sale, for money, particularly a Limited Edition I assume that that product has been throughly tested before it hits the shelf, PARTICULARLY A SID MIER GAME. Unfortunately this was not the case with CivIII. Also, every gaming magazine and website has given CivIII stellar reviews, they refer to the bugs in the game as minor inconvienences. I am a software developer and if I worked for Firaxis I'd be imbarrassed to tell anyone. So don't insult people for spending their hard earned money on a game that doesn't work properly because the developer released it without thoroughly testing it.

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...er ok, you're uninformed! you don't have to have been a 24/7 internet nerd to have heard Civ3 was in developement, 10 mins digging on this site prior to purchase would have given you ample evidence that the game is still a glorified beta!

magazines and web sites get less than a week (if they are lucky) playing the game on which to base their reviews, this may be enough for a FPS but for a strategy game like Civ3 it's woefully inadequate, instead of concentrating on finely balanced game play issues or problems in the end game, the reviews will focus on immediate stuff such as graphics, sound etc due to time constriants, which are of secondary importance in a game like Civ3, but, of course, as a software developer you know all this!!

..and you bought the LE?

[Nadexander]

Originally posted by CYBERAmazon
Obviously you dont work in the software industry. Bugs are a fact of life, like death and taxes. You can't ever get rid of all the bugs, its impossible because human beings are fallible.

POPPYCOCK. If I had an employee with that attitude, there would be an open door waiting and s/he'd have a boot in the arse to send him/her out said door.

CYBERAmazon

You sir, in this very statement have demonstrated that you have never in your life written a piece of software. You are in no way in a postion to make a statement like that. Period.

I, of course, base my statement on the fact that I have plenty of bug-free software sitting on my computer.

The Internet browser you are using at to read this message in all likelyhood has over a hundred of bugs. Bug-free software _DOES NOT EXIST_

[Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS]

http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=jmorris&page=1

Jeff

[Malleus Dei]

You'd think that big gaming companies would learn to do outside beta testing.

I play a niche game, put out by a two man team. Every new version goes to outside beta testing ASAP, where we experienced users beat the hell out of it, find nearly all the bugs, and report them. They fix them, we retest, and so on until it works. THEN they release it.

Guess what? Doing it this way, there are no blatant or showstopping bugs when they release a new version of the game, plus the design team gets direct and immediate feedback from their most experienced users. Heck, one time I posted a bug report online and saw it fixed two hours later. They listen to their testers and we see our ideas go directly into the game.

Plus they DO announce what will be out in the next version/patch. In public. With screenshots. They aren't afraid that perhaps they can't make things work.

The care about their customers, and they care about customer input, and they care about customer satisfaction.

Don't you wish that some other game companies did things this way?

[Venger]

Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS

http://www.avault.com/articles/getarticle.asp?name=jmorris&page=1

Jeff

Come on Jeff, we get so little feedback these days from Firaxis, if you've got time to be here, ignore this type of thread and address the ones where we need input from Firaxis on game questions...the patch will speak for itself on threads like this...

Venger

[cassembler]

Bug-free software _DOES NOT EXIST_

I agree to this statement, though I do remember programming Pascal in High school, the only way to get a %100 was to write a BUG FREE program...

Now programming Civ3 in Pascal is a freakin' joke. We all know that. I'm just sayin' that THEORETICALLY, with unlimited resources, a bug free game can exist.

[Malleus Dei]

"Obviously you dont work in the software industry. Bugs are a fact of life, like death and taxes. You can't ever get rid of all the bugs, its impossible because human beings are fallible."

Nonsense. It is humanly possible to produce perfect code. I have seen it done, and I have done it myself. It takes talent, dedication, focus, testing and a committment to excellence - but it CAN be done.

"POPPYCOCK. If I had an employee with that attitude, there would be an open door waiting and s/he'd have a boot in the arse to send him/her out said door."

Agreed. The employee you want is one who is committed to the goal of producing bug-free software. The employee you don't want is the one who thinks that buggy software is acceptable.

"You sir, in this very statement have demonstrated that you have never in your life written a piece of software. You are in no way in a postion to make a statement like that. Period."

Ahem. I have written software, in about 9 different languages. I have written DRIVERS - heck, you might even be using one that I wrote. I have run a big website. And I agree with him. Do you want to tell me that I am not a position to make a statement like that? I hope not, because I will laugh at you.

Bug-free software can be written; it's been done. At the very LEAST it can be what you constantly strive for. Anyone with the attitude that bugs are not only inevitable but acceptable is striving not for excellence but for mediocrity.

And that is just what they will get: mediocrity.

[Venger]

Bug free software is indeed possible - but with increasing complexity comes greater chances of something unforseen in the system occurring. Anything made by humans can contain errors.

However, that does not mean they SHOULD contain errors, or that they should be considered finished products until they are bug-free. Every device can have defects or errors, it's bringing that product to market and selling it with known defects that is an offensive proposition.

And as these gentlemen have said, it's possible to release a program that is so close to bug free that those issues that do arise are indeed obtuse and don't affect gameplay but in the most extreme circumstances...that's what QA is for.

I'd also fire somebody who thought a buggy product was indeed a suitable one for release...

Venger

[reds4ever]

;

[Ray K]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei

Nonsense. It is humanly possible to produce perfect code. I have seen it done, and I have done it myself. It takes talent, dedication, focus, testing and a committment to excellence - but it CAN be done.

With regards to an application like Civ3, you couldn't be more wrong.

As a career software developer myself, I concur that bug-free software is possible. However, the requirements for any commercial software application are going to be a moving target. For this reason, Civ3 will never be 'perfect'. Just look at the threads already requesting changes for Civ4!

Bugs have to be evaluated based on their severity, scope and impact to the bottom line. Economics dictate that some will never be addressed. I've developed on mainframes, Unix and Windows platforms, and it's all the same. The time and cost of testing and debugging software to 'perfection' would make the software obsolete long before it reached the market.

From my experience, Civ3 is above-average in software quality. Better than Civ2, that's for sure. The biggest problems in the game involve gameplay issues and missing functionality, not software bugs.

[yin26]

Perfection is a silly term to begin with. Who said perfection? I'm talking professionalism and competence. And Firaxis ain't got much.

[Frito]

Originally posted by Venger
Bug free software is indeed possible

Yeah, maybe the calculator program that comes w/ windows.

I'm not happy that it has bugs, but I(and I'm sure many other people) would rather have got the game when we did and download any patch for free when its out. If its not free then its a whole new ball game.

[Frito]

Originally posted by Venger
I'd also fire somebody who thought a buggy product was indeed a suitable one for release...

I'm glad you don't have Bill Gates job...