New Post from Dan@FIRAXIS at CivFanatics.com

[Akka]

Originally posted by CyberShy
CyberAmazon,

can you plz name one of your bugfree applications ?
I'm curious !

A COMPLETELY bug-free application does not exist. Thus, there is a bunch of games (I'm not very into "business applicatio" ) that worked great from day one and had bugs practically invisible.

Starcraft
Brood War
Diablo 1 (good ol' Blizzard from the times before Diablo 2...)
90 % of games prior to 1993
Doom
Total Annihilation ( this game WAS a revolution)
Duke Nukem
99,9 % games on SMS, NES, Super NES, Megadrive, Playstation, Dreamcast, etc...

Well, there is a lot more. but it's just to show that nearly bug-free things exist.
Though I would like to say : Civ 3 in my opinion is nearly bug-free. It's rushed, not polished, but except the air superiority, I don't remember anything TECHNICAL bug. Design flaws are countless, but technical ones are not that numerous.

I would like to add something too : Fireaxis made a rushed production with a lot of design flaws, that's true. Now, calling them name and particularly "lazy", while I'm deeply convinced they probably spent all their time on Civ3 (remember Soren who said that all his personnal stuff was at the Fireaxis building), is not only resolving nothing, but is purely instulting them.
I DO agree that they should communicate a lot more with the fanbase, even to just say "the patch is in progress" or listing all the bugs/complaints they are aware of.
Though, the loud yelling about the patch while nobody still know WHAT is in it seems a little prematured.
I won't yell at Fireaxis, because perhaps that their patch will just correct all the grievances I have with the game.
I won't praise them either, because perhaps that the patch will be pure crap.
But until I know, I'll restraint myself about insulting them or kissing their butt, and I'll stick with only complaint about game flaws, lacks and things to improve ; i.e., I'll only talk about what has been DONE, and not things that are still under development.

[Ghengis Brom]

Ummm, excuse me but...

Originally posted by reds4ever
Cian, you couldn't see that coming? like i say the game had no public beta testing, no demo and then at the last moment it became apparent the game had no MP...and the thought never crossed your mind that there may be gameplay issues? you're a second hand car salemans dream!

neville chamberlian eat your heart out..

I had no idea that CivIII was even in developement until I saw it in the store. Call me uninformed but I don't spend a lot of time reading boards and such on the internet, I play Civ. When I see a product in a store, for sale, for money, particularly a Limited Edition I assume that that product has been throughly tested before it hits the shelf, PARTICULARLY A SID MIER GAME. Unfortunately this was not the case with CivIII. Also, every gaming magazine and website has given CivIII stellar reviews, they refer to the bugs in the game as minor inconvienences. I am a software developer and if I worked for Firaxis I'd be imbarrassed to tell anyone. So don't insult people for spending their hard earned money on a game that doesn't work properly because the developer released it without thoroughly testing it.

[Shiva]

Originally posted by number6
It's when the bugs are so obvious and surely could have been caught by play testing that I get upset. We are not talking minor bugs here.

Hate to break it to you but not all bugs that get caught in a beta test get fixed. I've been a beta tester on three different games (still on going in one) and its a fact of life that stuff doesnt get fixed just because it gets reported. Once its reported the company weighs if and when something gets fixed.

[Venger]

Another distinction between bugs are the type that are system specific, i.e. problems with NVidia, and those that are endemic, such as how air missions just plain don't function.

Once can excuse the occassional obtuse system specific bugs - it's hard to test so thoroughly as to guarantee compatability with every system. It's even okay to excuse the occassional obtuse gameplay bug - such as how to dupe items in Diablo (a wierd effect where a unique sequence of perfectly timed events can create copies of game items).

But I just CANNOT excuse bugs like air missions. These bugs are apparent to EVERYONE, on EVERY system. That this was not tested is inexcusable. I like many am tired of purchasing a license to participate in software betas, even if I do get a free upgrade to the final release with the release of a patch.

That said - Firaxis was in a really tough position, a deadline from what could be the most jackassed game publisher of all time, the loss of key members of the team, and high expectations for this game. I tend to think they feel bad about not having the game more polished and up to our expectations, and are banging out one hell of a patch. Dan's commentary at CivFanatics about alot of changes tells me this is there way of giving us what they really wanted to in the first place but couldn't due to many many constraints...

Venger

[Your.Master]

Re: My post on Civ Fanatics

Originally posted by Ghengis Brom
Subject: Obviously Not Too Many Civer's Have Played Ultima Online


I have, and I fully understand why Firaxis is not giving details on whats in the patch. As Dan stated, in process of developing software it sometimes necessary to change or entirely remove features which were planned or implemented in the beginning. Ultima Online is constantly releasing patches for their game and in the past had made a habit of promising or eluding to certain changes which never came to be. This did nothing but infuriate the player community. I'm just glad Firaxis announced they are working on the patch and gave a tenative release date. That's a lot better some other companies have done *cough* Origin *cough*.

Me at home playing CivIII -------> "I am a above the law!"

But have you ever played Ultima 9?

I own it, but I can't play it with a system that well exceeds the listed system requirements. It boots between 10 seconds and 5 minutes of gameplay, EVERY TIME. They stopped patching after a couple of months, while the game was still royally screwed up.

[Moraelin]

Originally posted by Grim Legacy [/SIZE]
Pffff. What idiocy to expect Civ3 to be all-perfect bugwise from the V1.0.

No, the real idiocy is that people like you find it normal to pay just to be beta-testers. It's this kind of flaming fanboy that drags the quality down for the whole rest of us.

How many of you remember that you could actually fortify fighters in open terrain in Civ2 before you patched it? Ooooops, guess the whiners forgot that even the mighty Civ2 wasn't spotless from the start, ey?

So your logic is "if other games got sold buggy before, it's ok to continue selling buggy games." Which is on par with saying "there have been frauds before, so frauds should be regarded as perfectly normal and legal." Or any other absurdity based solely on "but it's happened before, so it must be ok."

Well, no, it's still not OK. And if precedent is all that counts, maybe it's time some of us create a different precedent. Line suing the pants off the next company that releases a buggy game that needs a patch.

Don't get me wrong. This is not about Civ3, which actually works pretty well compared to other titles, it's about the whole "it's ok to pay for a non-functional product" mentality. No matter how buggy a game -- and I can think of a few which were buggy to the point of being totally unplayable -- there WILL be flaming fanboys who try to defend the Sacred Right To Release Buggy Games (TM). And I've had it up to here with that kind of an idiocy.

[Your.Master]

Originally posted by CYBERAmazon
I, of course, base my statement on the fact that I have plenty of bug-free software sitting on my computer.

CYBERAmazon

Define "plenty". Now describe the software: are there games? Are they 40 years old? Also, please note that almost all computers come with things like Microsoft Word and others, which have had known bugs for YEARS (the famous Word memory leak comes to mind).

Bug free software...perhaps we might have one-page DOS console programs written in BASIC.

Where do we work now? Hmmm?

I'm pretty sure that any commercial product after say...1995 has it's share of bugs.

If you tell true, I stand corrected, but methinks you don't know about bugs that exist there. Even major ones.

Hmm...who else might not have known about bugs in software they had?

[Akka]

Originally posted by Your.Master




Define "plenty". Now describe the software: are there games? Are they 40 years old?

Look the list I posted before. Which is FAR to be complete.

Also, please note that almost all computers come with things like Microsoft Word and others, which have had known bugs for YEARS (the famous Word memory leak comes to mind).

Well, there is a difference : you don't pay for Microsoft products

Bug free software...perhaps we might have one-page DOS console programs written in BASIC.

Where do we work now? Hmmm?

I'm pretty sure that any commercial product after say...1995 has it's share of bugs.

If you tell true, I stand corrected, but methinks you don't know about bugs that exist there. Even major ones.

Hmm...who else might not have known about bugs in software they had?

I think that a LOT of Playstation games did not have any bugs. I know that's helped a lot because Playstation is a single machine and that there is never a compatibility problem, but I think it's even more because you CAN'T say "well we'll do a patch", then you have to get rid of the bugs before you can launch the game.

[reds4ever]

there was a whole load of patches for civ2 that corrected stuff like air superiority and corruption gameplay issues that people are slagging civ3 off for. i could copy'n'paste the patch history but it's quite a long text file, don't get me wrong civ2 is the best game ever IMHO but to suggest it game out bug-free is well,the words, glasses, rose and tinted spring to mind!

[reds4ever]

also when does a playstation game get anaylsed and disected over the internet like a top PC strategy game?

[ScottVib]

There actually have been Playstation games with bugs.. and since they are console games you just have to cringe and make sure you don't do it again, some PS games I can get to crash everytime just by doing a few simple steps, but it'll never be patched because its a Playstation game and they can't just do that.

Often times there is very questionable AI that can be taken advantage of in console games... this is the kind of thing that could be patched in a PC game, but in a console game you wouldn't have a chance of getting it patched.

That said the need to avoid patches for console games is why you'll more often see a console game delayed and held back, rather than a PC game. Unfortunately with a PC game the developers/publishers can say that's ok, let it go, we can patch it.. while the console game publishers have to hold on since they can't just patch it.

[JimMac]

Just read through that Civfanatics thread, and I my first thoughts are sympathies to Dan. I thought that some Apolyton regular posters were hard on Firaxis until I read this.

Dan, come back to Apolyton where your efforts are appreciated, (right Yin?)

JimMac

[cassembler]

Wow. This is a really touchy issue for some people...

It IS a VIDEO GAME.

get over it.

[Libertarian]

Venger:

But I just CANNOT excuse bugs like air missions. These bugs are apparent to EVERYONE, on EVERY system. That this was not tested is inexcusable. I like many am tired of purchasing a license to participate in software betas, even if I do get a free upgrade to the final release with the release of a patch.

I was all set to fire off a salvo about how a man who CANNOT excuse a failing in someone else ought not to excuse one in himself either — you know, the ol' beam in your eye, speck in mine thing — that is, until I saw this:

That said - Firaxis was in a really tough position, a deadline from what could be the most jackassed game publisher of all time, the loss of key members of the team, and high expectations for this game. I tend to think they feel bad about not having the game more polished and up to our expectations, and are banging out one hell of a patch. Dan's commentary at CivFanatics about alot of changes tells me this is [their] way of giving us what they really wanted to in the first place but couldn't due to many many constraints...

I appreciate that. Thank you.

[wal35]

Originally posted by reds4ever
there was a whole load of patches for civ2 that corrected stuff like air superiority and corruption gameplay issues that people are slagging civ3 off for. i could copy'n'paste the patch history but it's quite a long text file, don't get me wrong civ2 is the best game ever IMHO but to suggest it game out bug-free is well,the words, glasses, rose and tinted spring to mind!

Or and I'm leaning towards this given the way people are posting like spoilt brats - people who think Civ2 was bug free are too young to have bought the original Civ2 game, come to think of it some of them still haven't grown up.

Where I work we are constantly arguing with users about "thats not a bug, thats how you wanted it to work" e.g corruption. Likewise now and again we have to say "Yup thats a bug we'll fix that in a patch" e.g. air superiority, but its only after the patch is tested and packaged for release will we tell the users which bugs/features have been addressed in this specific patch.

Then theres the issue of priority just because you think or even the small (compared to total sales) but vocal Apolyton population think somethings are critical the larger buying population might not e.g. speed on huge maps with 16 civs.

Then there is also the "problem" that a sizeable portion of buyers won't even have had a problem - just like me in fact, Civ3 works a treat - first time, every time.