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  • Corruption Levels Are Fair

    Just an observation, but I've noticed that as people have had more time to actually play the game, rather than complain about it, most of them have decided that the level of corruption and waste in Civ 3 isn't unfair, it's just different from what we were used to with Civ 2 and SMAC. So you have to develop new strategies, is that a bad thing? I was shocked at first by how corrupt my distant cities were (what, my people would dare to cheat their beloved ruler?), but I found ways to manage that, and I came to accept the reality that managing a far-flung empire isn't as trivial as it was in Civ 2. Civ 3 makes you think a little more. At some point you have to go for quality rather than quantity.

    The developers have said that the AI labors under the same burden of corruption as the player does. So again, it's not unfair, just different. There are those who think of "fair" as "balanced in my favor". To put this in perspective, I found this quote from Soren about balanced combat pretty interesting:

    "The AI get NO combat bonuses of any kind at any difficulty level. I understand that many people have a hard time believe this but let me give an anecdote... at one point in the project, people complained that combat was unfair, so I said I would change some things, and what I did was give the _human_ a combat bonus. Then people told me that combat was once again "fair." It is all in the eye of the beholder ."

    As someone who has been playing this game now for many many hours, I've seen my attitude change from shocked dismay to gradual, grudging appreciation for the intent behind higher corruption and waste levels. You can't just turn your brain off and win this game like you could with Civ 2. I would like to see more improvement with the higher government types, but Firaxis is already working on some kind of adjustment and maybe that's in the works.

    Who else has logged a lot of Civ 3 hours and gradually come to the same conclusion?

  • #2
    Firaxis has said corruption levels would be modified in a patch. So, that means either:

    1) Even they recognize corruption is out of hand

    2) They will break the game and you will not apply the patch

    Which answer do you think best suits the situation?

    Venger

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    • #3
      Well, I'm with you. I personally have yet to suffer major corruption problems. It makes long range wars harder and stuff. Hard to explain, but I like the corruption high.
      Never underestimate the healing powers of custard.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Venger
        Firaxis has said corruption levels would be modified in a patch.
        A Firaxian (I dont remember which one) have said that they probably will modify the corruption-levels somewhat. IF they do, we are talking small adjustments in order to avoid "1 shield output out of 10 shield wasted" situations. In above example, I suspect that they would change it to a minimum of 2-3 shields output, out of 7-8 wasted.

        Anyway, I think its a better idea to leave the corruption-levels as they are, and instead concentrate on making the corruption-preventing courthouse-improvement somewhat more effective instead.

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        • #5
          I always though that best solution is to have every city at lest 30% (including WLTKD) of production regardless of distance & num. of cities.
          Commerce corruption should stay as it is.

          That way, you have an STRATEGIC DECISION:
          -play big, warlike, poor economic civ with lots of units
          -play smaller civ, with less units & much better techs

          I also think that if someone expands to much, he should start stagnating in science compared to smaller (but developed) civs.
          Of course he will still have large production because of nubmer of cities and that 30% production.
          That way he can destroy those small tech-civs, with pure force.

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          • #6
            It is possible to adjust to the level of corruption, which probably reflects historical accuracy to a degree, especially before the modern age. However, the inability to do anything to respond is very frustrating. For example in current game at Regent on large map, have a city with potential output of 6 shields, 14 gold, and growing, but only getting 1 and 1 shield/gold. Built courthouse while at peace in democracy. Citizens are three original foreigners and three of my own, divided into one entertainer, 3 happy, 2 content. Courthouse had ZERO effect. Still at 1 and 1. Now what? While the city is inland on another continent and as far from my capital as it can get, it is connected by rail to a harbor in modern times and has a 4 unit garrison. This level of negative algorithms needs to be fixed.
            No matter where you go, there you are. - Buckaroo Banzai
            "I played it [Civilization] for three months and then realised I hadn't done any work. In the end, I had to delete all the saved files and smash the CD." Iain Banks, author

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            • #7
              I was a little surprised myself (even though I had advanced warning from the forum) but the more I play, the more I get used to it and actually like it. I guess it's because the waste factor is somewhat offset by the fact that you can now mine grasslands to get an extra shield (without changing it into a forest).

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              • #8
                Realisitc How?

                In my games, the problem of corruption has notbeen terrible since I usually have a very rich core that can afford to upkeep those economically worthless outer cities. That said, the corruption in theory is out of hand without a possible remedy. Can any of those that say- corruption is just fine- give me an example of sucha situation anywhere, anytime? As a governor I should be able, through my own administrators (the courthouse) or through terror and intimidation (not modelled in civ) milk any city, distant or otherwise, of everything they got. If you really want to make it realistic, then give a player the ability to curb corruption and waste but substitute in a happiness penalty, since the locals are probably not thrilled with all the rules coming from the distant capitol. i would rather have to keep a constant, weary eye towards a far-flung colony than decide not to make them cause, besides resources, I get nothing from them.
                If you don't like reality, change it! me
                "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                • #9
                  It doesn't bother me. I believe I recall Soren saying only that they wouldn't increase it.
                  "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatum." — William of Ockham

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Venger
                    Firaxis has said corruption levels would be modified in a patch. So, that means either:

                    1) Even they recognize corruption is out of hand

                    2) They will break the game and you will not apply the patch

                    Which answer do you think best suits the situation?

                    Venger
                    3) Firaxis has decided to heed the minority of whiners to make them happy

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                    • #11
                      They could make everybody happy and allow you to choose different levels of corruption in the set up screens at the beginning of the game
                      Keep on Civin'
                      RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

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                      • #12
                        Ah, the ubiquitous "make it an option at startup" comment. How did we forget about that!?

                        That would be great. I personally can't see how anyone could like the current corruption scheme, but that's fine with me.

                        probably been asked before somewhere, but corruption take account of the map size? I'd hate to play the US on a huge map and have everything west of Pittsburgh be totally corrupt (or would that be unrealistic?).
                        "...it is possible, however unlikely, that they might find a weakness and exploit it." Commander Togge, SW:ANH

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                        • #13
                          I also like the high levels of corruption, and I'll read carefully what's in the first patch before dowloading it. Whatever they do in it, especially reducing the corruption, I'm afraid this will render the game easier unless they teach the AI to use the fixes as well as the average human player can do - which I doubt of course. Civ III is well balanced and I don't want that broken. The most urgent fixes to do are interface and windows related.
                          The art of mastering:"la Maîtrise des caprices du subconscient avant tout".

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ming
                            They could make everybody happy and allow you to choose different levels of corruption in the set up screens at the beginning of the game
                            And where would the default sclaer go? And where would you play, Ming?

                            Raging hordes, diety, max corruption?

                            BTW, did you start this game at diety as you promised us so often? And stay there?

                            Best wishes and all that.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              my main gripe about corruption is not how bad it can get but that the model used to determine it feels like a cop out. distance and number of cities are the two main things used afaik. it seems a bit simple, eh? i wouldn't mind making efficient large empires managable given certain circumstances(it'd be hard of course). you'd also have the other end of the scale which would be small empires being very corrupt.

                              i haven't heard this idea anywhere, but what if higher culture lowered corruption? sounds very good to me.
                              Eschewing obfuscation and transcending conformity since 1982. Embrace the flux.

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