Do we have combat all wrong??

[Freeze]

re Gnu

I haven't tried increasing hitpoints of units, but there actually is an option to see only "one round" of combat even though it's resolved normally.

[zapperio]

I've noticed streaks also, actually. And what is striking about them is they seem to come in, well ...streaks. When I've noticed an unlikely result it seems to happen, in a streak, to same unit types. Say you are attacking a stack of unit type x and one y, and your first x bounces off a low probability then too often all the other x bounce off too, exactly the same way. switch to y and it breaks the streak. Can someone test this? I don't have the game at my office.

It is simple to test really. The theory is that there is an ordered queue of random seeds saved at the beginning of each turn and that any unit that needs a random seed takes the first one and so forth and so on.

I heard someone suggesting exploiting this by finding the 'good' seeds and save loading and ordering the battle accordingly, ie if the second seed gives a win then do a critical battle second etc. But I never heard of any testing done.

But if the seeds are unit dependent then it will explain what I've been seeing and bring us one step closer to discovering if and how the random seed generator/distributor fouls up.

Zap

[Cyanydd]

Aren't we completely forgetting rate of fire? I recall reading that ROF is different for different units.

For example, my knight seems to attack three times for every two attacks of an archer. Can anyone verify this?

I also agree that it IS a round based system, and that the numbers rule all. That said, it's hard to be completely clear re: how the defensive/attack modifiers affect things. I mean, we all know the percentage, but are unclear on EXACTLY how it is applied.

I also have to agree with the above post that suggests that results are similar for the same units. Ex: in one turn three elite knights attacked a spearman, and all lost, without hitting once. Then an impi attacked, and won, sustaining no damage. I'm not pissed about it - I know it's just the numbers (and I've had them work in my favor too) but it seemed a bit screwy.

For those complaining, try playing on the higher levels where you're not always the attacker - then you'll be grateful that defenders get a bit of an advantage. (I know I have been).

-Cy

[Venger]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
A question for the people who tried increasing the hitpoints of units... Doesn';t this mean that you will have to stare at your screen for AGES when you fight? I already detest waiting for two elite units slugging it out...

I thought about that and have done minimal testing - it's longer, but I'm willing to wait for results that don't suck! God forbid an army fight another army!!!

Venger

[J10]

Originally posted by Excelsior


No, the odds of winning one round is 3.3 out of 9.3. (The defense gets a 10% bonus on grassland.) Thus it is (3.3/9.3)^13, right? Thus the odds are .00014%, I think.

Are you suggesting that I should NOT buy any lotteries like... ever?

Perhaps when you keep winning battles then there's a mechanism to tide the odds against you? I certainly hope not. In the last two rounds I lost three 4hp fortified Riflemen in size 12 cities in a row to 4hp calvaries, and I lost my city.

quote:

Originally posted by zapperio
the chance of someone exaggerating on a open forum are, I'd say... 50/1.

He he, that's pretty damn funny!!!

I'll say. But not that funny when it happened to you. I lost control and started yelling at the screen when I lost my freaking city (see above).

[Venger]

Originally posted by Cyanydd
Aren't we completely forgetting rate of fire? I recall reading that ROF is different for different units.

For example, my knight seems to attack three times for every two attacks of an archer. Can anyone verify this?

ROF only seems to be on bombardment units and the cruise missile. Anyone have any idea what it does on standard units? Could be the key to bringing back firepower!

Venger

[J10]

In Civ2 the scenario you describe is a statistical impossibility.

Maybe we can just plug the numbers into the new formula.

Some will argue then for micromanaged tactics, 10 to 1 advantages, etc. How dull and tedious...

I'm totally lost...

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by J10
Perhaps when you keep winning battles then there's a mechanism to tide the odds against you? I certainly hope not. In the last two rounds I lost three 4hp fortified Riflemen in size 12 cities in a row to 4hp calvaries, and I lost my city.

The odds of that are *insert trumpet fanfare* 0.2%! In other words, 12.6%^3.

Well, the way I see it, there are four possibilities. Either you are exaggerating, you are extremely unlucky, the random number generator is messed up, or we don't understand how the combat system works.

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by Venger
ROF only seems to be on bombardment units and the cruise missile. Anyone have any idea what it does on standard units? Could be the key to bringing back firepower!
Venger

As far as I know, it does nothing for non-bombardment units. I think it is just the number of hitpoints that a bombardment unit can destroy per bombardment. In other words, every time it bombards, it has a number of chances equal to the ROF to take away one hitpoint.

[GePap]

MOre Questions?

Does changing HP change the speed in which one gains experience, and does it change how often you could get Great Leaders, or can we change that last bit in the editor ourselves? Also, can we give land units the same ability as warships, since they can both bombard and attack? Think about it, give tanks stand-off power-lets say rate 2 if everyone has HP 10, while arty gets 6. That wouuld mean very realistic combat. Imagine, Civ3 with VERY REALISTIC combat

[Excelsior]

Re: MOre Questions?

Originally posted by GePap
Does changing HP change the speed in which one gains experience, and does it change how often you could get Great Leaders, or can we change that last bit in the editor ourselves? Also, can we give land units the same ability as warships, since they can both bombard and attack? Think about it, give tanks stand-off power-lets say rate 2 if everyone has HP 10, while arty gets 6. That wouuld mean very realistic combat. Imagine, Civ3 with VERY REALISTIC combat

Changing HP does not affect either promotions or great leaders as far as I can tell. You can make land units that bombard and move in the same turn, but not bombard and attack. Ships can either bombard or attack in one turn, but not both. Further, attack or bombarding uses one move point.

Edit: Come to think of it, you could make a ground unit attack and bombard in a single turn, but it would have to be a blitz unit like the tank.

[GePap]

But can this be changed?

One long question. Is there a way for me to edit a ground unit such that:

I give it 4 movement points, both the ability to bombard and attack (like warships), and that of multiple attacks (like modern armor) such that I could
With move one, move into range, move two, bombard, move three same, move four attack directly. Or does the editor allow only one bombardment per turn of combat regardless of movement points?

[Excelsior]

I believe the rule is one bombardment per turn. That's how it is with warships. I don't know how blitz would affect this, though. Hold on, I'll see!

[Excelsior]

Bombardment units with blitz can bombard as many times as they have movement points. This does, however, make them insanely powerful.

[GePap]

I've unleased a monster!

Excelsior;
What have we done !

Well, soo enough the discussion about FP/HP should fade away once various people learn how to make unstoppable juggernaughts. My more important question to you again is, warships can't bombardd and move- can your blitz unit do so? Also, coulld we perhaps give rader arty move 2, and thus 2 bombardments even if its no blitz unit?
I guess if all units have 10+ HP and the rate fo fire for such a unit is set a 1 and it has only 3 movement, then all its bomberdment would only do 3 HP at most, not that terrible.