New tech tree - why oh why?

[Arkatreides]

Well, here is my reverted tech tree for the ancient times. Two new advances (pinched from the middle ages) are Military Organisation (<-Printing Press) which allows you to build things like Legions and War Chariots for all Civs (btw I swapped Horse and Chariots again) and Seafaring (<-Chemistry) which allows you to build the Lighthouse.

Polytheism is no longer needed to advance so it is a bit useless now. I thought moving the Oracle but that makes the Oracle too worthless. So maybe we need a new wonder (Pantheoon?)

I believe this tree is much more intuitive. Any comments are welcome.

[Cian McGuire]

Monarchy: Now Warrior Code and Polytheism
Used to be: Code of Laws and Ceremonial Burial

I truly ask WHY? Polytheism was definitely not linked to monarchy. Or if it was, then so was Monotheism. Warrior Code? Well I cannot really see how such an advance can help the advent of monarchy.
In Civ2 however, both prerequisites made sense: Monarchy was linked to 'religion', the King often being the messenger of the deity on earth and the Code of Laws brought structure to the society.

Well, take a look at all the early monarchies- they were almost all based on a view that the King was the earthly messenger or even avatar of a Sun God- only in Greece was this pattern really broken in the ancient Middle East until the development of the Hebrews, but even then they only changed it from a god to The God.

[Arkatreides]

Which is my point, no? Anyway the real thing that bothers me is that code of laws is missing as a monarchy prerequisite.

[Deathray]

Originally posted by Arkatreides
Well, here is my reverted tech tree for the ancient times. Two new advances (pinched from the middle ages) are Military Organisation (<-Printing Press) which allows you to build things like Legions and War Chariots for all Civs (btw I swapped Horse and Chariots again) and Seafaring (<-Chemistry) which allows you to build the Lighthouse.

Polytheism is no longer needed to advance so it is a bit useless now. I thought moving the Oracle but that makes the Oracle too worthless. So maybe we need a new wonder (Pantheoon?)

I believe this tree is much more intuitive. Any comments are welcome.

Swap chariots and horsemen back again. Chariots should come first. Chariots were employed in battle first as they gave a stable platform from which to fight. It wasn't until the development of stirrups that horses were used in battle, and then horses were more effective.

Horses are more effective in battle than chariots as with chariots you need two horses and a wooden bit, and if anything gets broken then the whole thing is out of the battlefield. With horses then you have two horses, and if one gets taken out then the other is still moving. Plus the horses move faster without having to tow the wooden bit, and the platform for a chariot is quite expensive, so you would get more horses for your cash.

[Cian McGuire]

Which is my point, no? Anyway the real thing that bothers me is that code of laws is missing as a monarchy prerequisite.

Not at all:

1. Warrior Code was where the King's family (and subsequently the King) was chosen from. A people followed a powerful warrior.

2. Polytheism- in order to consolidate his claims to lead, a King usually made a tie between himself (sometimes symbolically, sometimes literally- by assuming godhood) and the King of the Gods- thus acting as an alliterative metaphor between how the Gods have a ruler and the people do.

If anything Code of Laws should come after Monarchy- frequently the King set down what should become law throughout his realm; for examples Hammurabi and Draco (though he was technically only a 'tyrant' he fulfilled any and all roles that a king typically does) stand out.

The main tie between Code of Laws and Republic exists due to that most famous of the ancient Republics, Rome- the Twelve Tablets which codified the law of Rome set the stage for the Senate.

[Arkatreides]

Deathray: Thank you for the info. That makes sense and I will chance it back!

Cian: Thank you for the info as well. What you say is actually quite true in some cases. I hadn't thought about the warrior king scenario and instead focused on medieval kings (you know the overweight inbred ones that couldn't lift a sword if their life dependet on it) and since this is Ancient times Monarchy I agree with you.

[Dienstag]

Getting past the ancient times, does anyone else think it is absolutely appalling that you can build aircraft carriers before the discovery of Flight?!?

Minister of Defense: Sir, I suggest we build large, expensive ships with flat tops, and no significant guns.
You (before discovery of Flight): You're fired!

Also, I would mind if there was a way to avoid having B-17s land on carriers....toggle the 'carrier-based' flag in my dream editor.

[Arkatreides]

I haven't quite got to Industrial ages yet but I already spotted a few 'mistakes' ... like Steel no longer requiring Electricity. :hmm:

[TechWins]

The Printing Press wasn't even discovered until the Renaissance age by Gutenberg, yet you have it listed in the Ancient age.

You should also make Polytheism a Prereq for Monarchy. A unit for Polytheism could be an elephant.

Republic should also have the Prereq of Philosophy, in that a Republic was a philosophy of how a society should be ran. Plus it would also increase the importance of Republic.

Instead of having Mysticism and/or Literature make Philosophy become available, have Polytheism and/or Literature make Philosophy become available. This would add some balance to the tech tree.

Chemistry also shouldn't be included in the Ancient era.

Now Monarchy shouldn't be a requirement tech to continue on to the Middle Ages, but make it so that Monarchy is a Prereq for Feudalism. This will make it so that no matter what you will eventually have to discover Monarchy. I believe something like this must be done with all techs.

[Terser]

I would imagine that a lot of those "empty" advances will be filled by new units/wonders/city improvements in the inevitable expansion.

[Cesa]

Originally posted by Arkatreides
Well, here is my reverted tech tree for the ancient times. Two new advances (pinched from the middle ages) are Military Organisation (<-Printing Press) which allows you to build things like Legions and War Chariots for all Civs (btw I swapped Horse and Chariots again) and Seafaring (<-Chemistry) which allows you to build the Lighthouse.

Polytheism is no longer needed to advance so it is a bit useless now. I thought moving the Oracle but that makes the Oracle too worthless. So maybe we need a new wonder (Pantheoon?)

I believe this tree is much more intuitive. Any comments are welcome.

You shouldn't be able to discover printing press without being able to write But good work anyhow.

[Cian McGuire]

Cian: Thank you for the info as well.

My pleasure- I look forward to seeing your work, and I'm just aiming to make it more historically accurate than it is

As for the Steel/Electricity I'd take a look at what goes into the forging of steel. Yes, great amounts of power are needed, but that could be provided with steam or wood power- hell, they knew of a primitive steel as far back as 1200 BC in Egypt and they even had larger, better steel manufactories in medieval times- Toledo, anyone?

Now, I don't advocate making Steel a Middle Era advance, as the smelting forges of those times only reached approx. 700 degrees Celsius, while pure iron melts at about 1500 degrees. The really important revolution in the production of steel didn't come about until Sir Henry Bessemer perfected his technique of removing carbon by introducing oxygen into the smelter in 1855 and it wasn't until the 1870's rolled around and Edison and Swan perfected Faraday's dynamo that electricity was widely used.

[Cian McGuire]

The Printing Press wasn't even discovered until the Renaissance age by Gutenberg, yet you have it listed in the Ancient age.

Yeah, that's something you're going to want to look into

You should also make Polytheism a Prereq for Monarchy. A unit for Polytheism could be an elephant.

I won't really get involved with new units and what not, but I will just say that I see no reason why belief in a pantheon of gods allows one to build elephants, especially in areas where they are not indigenous. India's Elephant covers that quite nicely, methinks.

Republic should also have the Prereq of Philosophy, in that a Republic was a philosophy of how a society should be ran. Plus it would also increase the importance of Republic.

Yes, it should, I think the original tree does quite admirably in regards to Republic's immediate prereqs.

Instead of having Mysticism and/or Literature make Philosophy become available, have Polytheism and/or Literature make Philosophy become available. This would add some balance to the tech tree.

Bu then you run the risk of too closely tying the Monarchy and Republic branches together- they're supposed to be a one-or-the-other relationship early on, and I agree- that adds a bit of strategical choice and keeps the gamestart tech flow varied.

Chemistry also shouldn't be included in the Ancient era.

No, it should not- I would say add in a tech into the Middle Era and entitle it 'Alchemy'. It would allow a new Wonder, 'The Philosopher's Stone', which acts as a commerce draw a lá the Colossus, and Alchemy should be the new end for the Colossus with Flight negating The Philosopher's Stone. This would be a direct requisite for Chemistry.

Now Monarchy shouldn't be a requirement tech to continue on to the Middle Ages, but make it so that Monarchy is a Prereq for Feudalism. This will make it so that no matter what you will eventually have to discover Monarchy. I believe something like this must be done with all techs.

I'm not sure if I agree with that "all techs" tenet, but yes, Monarchy should be required to research Feudalism, while allowing Republics to bypass pikemen and gun for Gunpower if they so choose.

[Admiral PJ]

Well the civ3 tech tree seems ok,
polytheism and warrior code are correct for monarchy, but I think Monarchy should be a requirement for going to the middle ages, feudalism shouldnt be possible without monarchy.
I do like the techs having different research sizes for the actual diffculty to discover, civ2 just had each level getting a bit higher.

Overall the tech tree is the only problem i have with civ3, it should have at least twice as many techs, with more intermideries.
Its good they have scientific theory.
Civ2's tech tree needed improving, though it did seem to make a lot of sense.
I prefer my tech tree i made for a civ2:TOT mod, i might try and put this onto civ3, it was based on the extra unit mods.

[Scouse Gits]

In any game you have to suspend some belief! Whilst I like the realism of the Civ Games you will never be able to achieve total truth in a tech tree. Chess is no less a game because Bishops can only move along the diagonals - so Civ 3 is no less a game because of some perceived anomalies.

I don't know the Civ 3 advance chart too well yet, but the system of advances in Civ 2 was well thought out … even though Ironclads could be produced without ever researching Iron Working

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SG(2)