A Taste Of Honey - CLEAR evidence of the AI cheating

[Compugasm 2]

Also, on the same map, different game, the Russian and English AI is so "good" at building wonders i don't even bother anymore. I can squeeze out the Pyramids as long as i start on the 20th turn. It must be completed by 1100BC before Japan finishes them, otherwise you've just bought a 300 shield granary.

[Sevorak]

Compugasm,

On Monarch it's well known the AI cheats outrageously to the tune of a -20% to the cost of anything it builds. Regent is the highest level where the AI doesn't cheat.

-Sev

[mharmless]

The AI does cheat on Monarch and above, no suprise there at all. It has been stated several times that the AI gets no such production advantages on Regent. If you see it cheating there (provable), then we want to hear about it.

[Elucidus]

Actually, i've been able to pace and even surpass the AI expansion a couple of times. This is on Regeant. I think it is all luck of the draw. My best was a city with two or three cattle on grassland and plains. I had that city produce a settler every three or so turns. It would take exactly as much time to produce a settler as it would to regenerate the two pop points at city size six.

I don't think they cheat in that respect, but then again, what do I know?

[CyberGnu]

Umm, I think Soren said the complete opposite. He confirmed that the computer knows where your units are at all times, but it is intended.

He also claimed the the AI in CTP2 doesn't know where your units are, with the result of an overly passive AI, incapable of waging offesnive warfare.

I wish there was a middle ground... I'm OK with the computer knowing where every unit is, say, four tiles from his border. It's when they launch a amphibious attack out of nowhere on the one undefended city in your heartland it pisses me off.

[kamosa]

I've seen the AI march right past perfectly viable cities to attack, just so it can get to that one city in the back with it's original spearman. In the last game I played, I used this fact to my advantage. The Persians were marching threw English lands to get to my spearman defended city. I waited until the got just about to my border and then bribed the English to join my side.


Then I rallied several Samuri to the path they would need to take and ambushed the rest.

[dexters]

Re: A Taste Of Honey - CLEAR evidence of the AI cheating

Originally posted by Snapcase



Is this an example of the AI cheating? I think it is. Concievably, he could have stumbled up randomly to exactly the right spot at exactly the right time. Somehow I doubt it.

No its not. If you have the option showing units defending cities, you can see other units defending cities of a Rival civ. If the City is empty, you won't see anything.

The American archer was probably sent to harass your empire, saw an open city and went for it.

Like Soren said, unless you put an enemy civ on the defensive, they will attack, no matter how pitiful it is. And I get the feeling it was just an opportunity grab that your city got taken.

[CyberGnu]

The American archer was probably sent to harass your empire, saw an open city and went for it.

Doesn't anyone read my posts? I just told you people that Soren CONFIRMED the AI cheating... Citing that the AI became to passive when they turned the cheating off.

[Raleigh]

If I remember his transcript, he said AI's knowledge of your forces was a "gray" area where it sorta did and sorta didn't or did know but didn't always act on it, etc. I also believe he said, they would continue to tweak it in this gray area and that they never intend a black or white solution of whether it knows where you are or not.

From my own aztec/America experience (do they always start near each other?) I can tell you I found him first and he had no idea where I was. I kept invading him and he sent his military WAY in the wrong direction to find me. I hardly find this dispositive, but it indicates the computer might NOT know where I was at any given time. Maybe the computer's knowledge really isn't black or white?

[xane]

I'm clutching at straws here, but what is apparent is the Americans had little choice in your cities and little knowledge to formulate (via an algorithm) which was best to attack, it may have just chosen at random, or if anything, put a weight on the capital.

Lack of knowledge can sometimes be just as dangerous, you can't "bait" or "decoy" an AI in such cases.

[Yoleus]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
[...] He also claimed the the AI in CTP2 doesn't know where your units are, with the result of an overly passive AI, incapable of waging offesnive warfare.
I wish there was a middle ground [...]

I did not know about CTP2, I agree it was awfully passive, and yes, please, definitely give me a middle grass. I mean, you can't hide!!! The AI should implement an info gathering routine of some kind. Otherwise if they start on a crappy island they will go for mapmaking and mindlessly run to the next best one instead of dying - as they should. Or WORSE, place cities in spots right over RESOURCES they are not supposed to see yet...
Apart from the "amphibious assault" capability, I think that no improvement has been made on the AI since CivII-Smac, just on the game rules. I would like some feedback on this issue.
I do not know if MoO3 will have the AI gathering info, but I hope so.

P.S. CyberGnu: "Gnu ex machina" means "Gnu OUT of the machine"...

[zapperio]

Here you go:

Soren Himself>>>

SITS>AI question - Does the AI cheat and know
where your weakly defended cities are?
Soren_Johnson_Firaxis> ...as for the AI, well, the AI does not interface with the map like the player does.
There were, however, some AI bugs in the original release in which the AI obviously was target the weakest
city. We are working on that... I just want to emphasize though that the AI is not a human. They don't have
a keyboard, mouse or monitor, so the answer to that question is never going to be "Yes" or "No." It will
always be somewhat grey

That makes it clear doesn't it? Oh, it doesn't? oh well...

Zap

[AHO]

Sorry but I just don't buy the argument that the American archers just accidently stumbled on to your one undefended city, nor do I buy the argument that the question of the AI's omniscience is a "grey" area. I went to war (to get the ONLY source of coal in my hemisphere on a "huge world" map--but that's for another thread) and instead of going for the heavily guarded, strategic frontline cities, they made a single-file bee-line to the other end of the continent to attack the only city in my 30+ empire that was only defended with an archer. As some of you have pointed out, there was NO WAY a normal opponent could have known that that was my weak point. The AI OBVIOUSLY sees all.

By the same token, this AI strategy/cheat, while annoying, is completely illogical and can be turned to your advantage. Here's my strategery: when you go to war, PURPOSEFULLY leave a city WAY on the other side of the empire lightly defended--if at all. Now you know where he's going, there'll be no mystery about where his troop strength will be amassed, and you can lay traps for his troops as they string across continent. The AI will send the entire kitchen sink straight towards that city in single-file like ants to a picnic, and you can pick them off one by one as they go by your choice of ambush positions. In the meantime, you can focus your attack on the ACTUAL cities of value while he sends his troop masses off on the wild goose chase. Take the cities you want, then, either wipe out the bee-line at your ambush sites, or take your newly acquired coal and sue for peace. I like to play with a "militaristic" civ like the Germans or Aztecs, which gives you more chance for battlefield promotions and, therefor, leaders who can rush-build your Wonders. Since you've ingeniously stretched his forces across hell's half-acre with your trap, you can keep up the hit and run attacks until you get the leaders you need--or until they get too close, whichever comes first!

[Raleigh]

I am not sure that is completely true (that the AI sees all, or goes after the weakest city like ants) because the Americans kept attacking my extremely heavily fortified large city right on their border, the way they should have been. I certainly had much more lightly defended cities further behind enemy lines, and some of them were also big and rich.

[Be Quicker]

2 things.

I've also noticed that the AI knows where your weakly/undefended cities are. Moreover Soren basically acknowledged it in the interview. I actually have been alerted to my undefended cities (which I obtained after peace treaties), because I thought: "Where the heck is that Japanese spearman going to? straight through my territory?"

As far mistakenly moving a unit from a city, my major complaint until now with the CivIII interface is that when a unit is active there is no picture in the right hand side of the screen showing which other units are standing at that spot (which has been my major source of loss of cannons and artillery).