Probability and Combat

[Bubba_B]

*BUMP*

[Stuie]

Re: Re: All hail Sevorak!

Originally posted by Bubba_B
I agree gj guys nice thread

and yes increased hit points would make a great difference Fraxis!!

Can this be done in the editor(by unit)??? Cant remember.

Hit points can only be changed globally for the different experience levels. You cannot change them for individual unit types.

As for Sev's post, all it did for me was point once again to the importance of artillery to soften up targets prior to attacking. Taking a hit point or two off of the defender will always mean an easier job for the attacker.

[Sevorak]

the importance of artillery to soften up targets prior to attacking. Taking a hit point or two off of the defender will always mean an easier job for the attacker.

Take that and post it up on the wall in big red letters. The real winner in this combat system is the artillery unit. Build lots of artillery - especially when taking on a city with a barracks, where all the defenders heal every turn so you need to either destroy the barracks (with a currently nonfunctional precision strike or with random shelling) or do all the damage you can in one turn. Similarly, a lot of defensive artillery will hopefully do the job on incoming attacking units, turning the hit point advantage the other way.

For that matter, build barracks and lots of them. The 1 extra hit point from units starting at Veteran cannot be underestimated, nor can the value of forcing your opponent to cart along a wagonful of slow-moving artillery.

-Sev

[Mister Hand]

Another factor to consider in the "Panzer vs. Hoplite" scenario is that the Panzer can retreat if it gets reduced to 1hp, while the Hoplite cannot. This means that even if the battle goes horribly wrong, the Panzer still can live to fight another day and have another shot at the Hoplite.

[Bubba_B]

The Issue..

I agree combined arms attacks are the way to go, bombard then attack.
Having said that I think the big issue I've seen on these threads is the defensive value of modern units. example: Reg Calvary 3 hit points and 2 defense don't stand much of a chance against a 4 hit point 4 attack long bowman. Just dont seem right to have that inbalance. Hell I had a modern tank beat by a calvary unit today!!
Combat needs a little tweaking.

[Barnacle Bill]

Although the stock Civ2 did not use firepower to distinguish gunpowder units from earlier ones, it could be used that way in mods. In my own personal use mod, I had actually had defined several eras as follows:

Era 1 (pregunpowder) - FP=1
Era 2 (matchlocks, 16th & 17th Centuries) - FP=2
Era 3 (flintlocks, 18th Century & Napoleonic) - FP=3
Era 4 (steam age 19th Century) - FP=4
Era 5 (world wars) - FP=6
Era 7 (modern) - FP=7

Units that had extra firepower in stock Civ3 recieved 1 higher than normal for their era.

Unfortunately, there were no quite enough unit slots (considering the ones hard-coded for barbarian use) to do what I wanted fully, even with the extras available in the Civ2 expansions. So, I had to make some compromises, but the final result still worked better than stock Civ2 (which was better than stock civ3). I also played around with hit points, attack factors & defense factors, progressively raising the playing fieldd in each era. The idea was that the more eras you were behind the harder it got to beat quality with quantity.

The problem is that in Civ2 you had plenty of knobs to tweak, but not enough unit slots.

In Civ3, you have no spare unit slots (unless you wack the UU's, or use Grampos's copy tool) as the editor stands today, and you've lost both firepower & hit points as knobs to tweek. This is a step backwards. You know what, I don't really care how it works in stock Civ3 so long as I can change it in my own copy.

BTW, I think the way artillery & air units work is a giant leap forward. Both changes are things I've wanted in the Civ combat system even before Civ I (you do realize Sid boosted it from Empire in the first place, don't you?). In Civ2, I actually did try to make artillery useless in the field by giving them all the "negates city walls" bit and cutting their attack factors in half and setting their defense to 0. Unfortunately, the AI would not use them right - kept sending them out unescorted, attacking units in the field with them, etc...

[TCO]

Hubba bubba,

Even in Civ2, a cavalry unit (A = 8) could take out a tank (D = 5). PROVIDED THE CAVALRY ATTACKED FIRST. The key is to use your offensive units for offense, not defense.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Barnacle Bill
Although the stock Civ2 did not use firepower to distinguish gunpowder units from earlier ones, it could be used that way in mods. In my own personal use mod, I had actually had defined several eras as follows:

Era 1 (pregunpowder) - FP=1
Era 2 (matchlocks, 16th & 17th Centuries) - FP=2
Era 3 (flintlocks, 18th Century & Napoleonic) - FP=3
Era 4 (steam age 19th Century) - FP=4
Era 5 (world wars) - FP=6
Era 7 (modern) - FP=7

Was it easier or harder to beat the AI after these changes?

[G.A]

Though the idea might also be lying deeper - this is all made to make you never think of overtaking a whole country, that has accidentally been stuck in the ancient era with just one tank. Just drop a bomb or two onto the city in question, and your tank`s chances of getting out of this unharmed increase greatly.

[WhiteElephants]

Originally posted by Venger
Keep in mind that the other side of the FP coin is hit points - a 3 HP 1 FP unit is equivalent to fighting a 1 HP 3 FP unit, for the most part.

I know Soren said something similar to this too, but I have to disagree since a one hit point 3 fire power unit is far more susceptible to being destroyed in the first round of combat and never getting a shot off in return, which would make that unit more of a suicide bomber offensive unit as opposed to the 3 hp 1 fp unit who would be more suited for a role of defense or attrition. I think the only time these two units would be comparable is if they face one another being that one hit from either unit would kill the other, but that usually isn't the case in Civ.

What would really make a difference would be the units offensive and defensive stats. Obviously a 1 hp 3 fp unit with a decent defensive stat would still make it a pretty chancy unit to use on the defense given that it could be quite easily killed by a lucky shot, but give that unit a decent offensive rating and you've got yourself a nice fanatic.

To go along with the analogy wouldn't you want a 2hp 2fp unit over either of those listed above?

Disclaimer: Firepower is the amount of hit points taken from the opponent when a successful attack is made, no?

[Bubba_B]

Originally posted by GP
Hubba bubba,

Even in Civ2, a cavalry unit (A = 8) could take out a tank (D = 5). PROVIDED THE CAVALRY ATTACKED FIRST. The key is to use your offensive units for offense, not defense.

OK probably should have left off the part about the calvary beating my Tank. It took away from the focus of the post, which is this........
Should a (Insert primative unit here) have a more than 50% chance of beating a (Insert more advanced unit here) on a regular basis.

Heck, looking through the chart a Knight has a 3 def to a Calvary's 2 def?!?!

Units that have a 50% chance or better of beating a unfortified calvary:
Swordsman
Legionary
Immortal
Longbowman
Knight
Samurai
So on and so forth........you guys got the manual

and that don't factor in hit points.

Oh well, if that don't do it......
den me speak not so gud, me must b stoopid

I guess I'll edit up my calvary's defense, Hubba Hubba

[WhiteElephants]

How many of those units can the cavalry retreat from or is that only when they attack?

[Bubba_B]

It says in the manual when attacking or being attacked a mobile unit can retreat. However, if both you and the opponent reach 1 HP it is a battle to the death.That happens alot.

That said:

Horseman 2 att
War Elephant 4 att
Knight 4 att
Mounted Warrior 3 att
War chariot 2 att
Babylonian bowman 2 att

Have a 50% chance or better at beating a unfortified calvary and they will not let you retreat.



I think I'm beginning to babble

P.S. is my sarcasam meter broke??

[Sevorak]

WhiteElephants,

When referring to Civ2 hit points and firepower, the hit point stat is considered x10, since that's how it was in Civ2. The firepower stat is not. Therefore, Armor (10.5.3 3/1) had 30 hit points, and did 1 point of damage every time it won a combat round. A Howitzer (12.2.2 2/2) had 20 hit points and did 2 points of damage every time it won.

Therefore, a 1/3 unit is not really any more disadvantaged than a 3/1 unit in combat. A few unlucky breaks could cause the 1/3 unit to perish prematurely, but even then, that's 5-10 lucky shots in a row (since it has 10 hp).

Bubba_B,

The manual has nearly every unit's statistic wrong. Don't trust it. It only has about six or so non-Ancient stats right, so far as I can tell: Transport, Musketman, Musketeer, Modern Armor, Army, Leader. Every other line is flawed in some way. The Cavalry has 3 defence, just like a Knight.

-Sev

[Bubba_B]

So whens the Patch.....

So when does the patch to the manual come out

Boy is my face red!

Can't use the manual for the forum.......

Oh well, Cav same as knight with no hit point diffrence still don't seem right.

Thanks Sev, dont get me wrong I like the game but dang they sure did rushed some things.
Air Superiority Bug.....How did they miss that!!