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  • Why I've stoped playing Civ III

    Before some smartass ask why I'm waisting time posting my (negative) appreciation of this game - I do it because I really wanted to like this game and feel cheated by what was delivered. I bought my first computer because of Civ I and bought all the civ related games that came out since. I had loads of fun with Civ II (as opposed to CTP - that shiny broken toy) and expected no less from its successor. Well it is true that one should never expect anything because 2 days ago, after using the editor in order to correct some of the gross inconsistencies in the design - and seeing the engine crash repeatadly as a result - I decided to shelve the game until they either patch it thouroughly or that a better one comes along.

    First of all I conceive Civ to be about the civilizing process. I really don't understand how people can get a kick out of churning out units and chasing the AI up & down the map. But be that as it may, to each his/her own style. So based on my assumption I find Civ III to be so much less that what it could have been.

    1) the game is ridiculously linear; i.e all players start more or less in a similar position and end (potentially) more or less at the same finish line. All go through the same tech tree (an outdated concept IMO - should replace it with something more organic - more flexible), produce the same units, pursue the same goals and try to acheive similar results (pls spare your remarks about the different engames - they're all basically the same thing: a winner on top and loosers behind).

    2) it is also tediously simplistic - both in concept and execution. Granted the scope prevents such complexities one can see in Europa universalis but who said we must remain forever focused on an all-in one solution ? Why not a series of backward compatible games covering each an era in depth ? I dream of seeing a game where I can witness the failure and dislocation of my civilization - and it's rebirth into something new - different yet still akin to the precedent one... Alas a choice has been made (since CIV I) to put playability above realism - as if both were mutually exclusive ! Well perhaps it is for chronically hormone-impared teenboyz ...

    3) the interface has been streamlined apparently. To some extent this is true - but again the developers seem to have stopped short of a finished product. Where some commands are indeed simplified (for the better) - some other painfully remind me of CTP where one had to dig multiple level to get to a specific function. Why not a spreadsheet-like system where you'd have different level of information displayed on overlapping pages ? Perhaps too processor intensive that... I don't know since I'm not a programmer.

    4) the editor is on the surface all that I could have asked in order to customize the game to my heart's content - except that it's totally non-functionnal ! I tried making the building of the Settler unit dependant on the appearance of wheat (changed to be a strategic resource) and the knowledge of pottery only to have the game either protection-fault crash on me or start ok then churn & churn until it froze. This was to prevent the AI from overexpending as it tends to do in this newest iteration.

    5) Finally the AI is both overagressive and extraordinarily stupid - a receipe for disaster - both in VL as in RL. I've seen the AI put cities in the middle of a waterless desert, on frozen tundra with no forest or games around just to deny me room for expension. While this is an interesting reflex - it could have been implemented with more finesse. The improved diplomatic system demonstrates the above better still: the AI is constently trying to score points off you - while this is fair - I deplore the lack of cooperation/coordination (especially when one civ is beholden to you {in awe of} between civilizations.

    For the positive side.

    a) the whole concept of Culture is interesting - from the expending borders to the civ-specific cultural attributes. However even here we can see the shallowness of it's design by the simple fact that any civ can get similar bonuses if they perform similar actions. There's no sense of uniqueness to any civilization.

    b) the integrated economic system is much better - I for one am not sad about the loss of caravans.

    All in all though Civ III is too lacking in depth to satisfy me. Well I've ranted long enough. If you have any comments - post away !


    G.

  • #2
    So... will you be returning the game and dropping your account at Apolyton or at least sit on the sidelines with nothing further to say?

    Just curious.

    Comment


    • #3
      You should get MOO3 when its released.
      It's candy. Surely there are more important things the NAACP could be boycotting. If the candy were shaped like a burning cross or a black man made of regular chocolate being dragged behind a truck made of white chocolate I could understand the outrage and would share it. - Drosedars

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Why I've stoped playing Civ III

        Originally posted by Grallon
        1) the game is ridiculously linear; i.e all players start more or less in a similar position and end (potentially) more or less at the same finish line. All go through the same tech tree (an outdated concept IMO - should replace it with something more organic - more flexible), produce the same units, pursue the same goals and try to acheive similar results (pls spare your remarks about the different engames - they're all basically the same thing: a winner on top and loosers behind).
        Well, couldn't that be said of ALL civilization games? I mean, every Civ game is about winning, and, until then, Military power and Tech/Spaceship where the only way to win. Now it's much more diverse. If you want to play a game where you don't have to win, just fire up Sim City, it's really great for that. Now you even have unique units, ok, it's nothing really exciting or great, but add some diversity and some new tactics. Leaders do the same.

        2) it is also tediously simplistic - both in concept and execution. Granted the scope prevents such complexities one can see in Europa universalis but who said we must remain forever focused on an all-in one solution ? Why not a series of backward compatible games covering each an era in depth ? I dream of seeing a game where I can witness the failure and dislocation of my civilization - and it's rebirth into something new - different yet still akin to the precedent one... Alas a choice has been made (since CIV I) to put playability above realism - as if both were mutually exclusive ! Well perhaps it is for chronically hormone-impared teenboyz ...
        Civ goal is about a simplistic, addictive game, and it does that well. Civ 3 is not different, and even better at it I think. Sure, a more complicated game would be cool, but would have a much smaller market share. I am currently working on a complex TBS strat game similar to Civ, but realy just for hardcore players who wants a complex game. If you don't like the simplicity of Civ, well, that's fine with me, but why have you bought Civ3 then? You knew it wouldn't make a 180 degree turn from Civ2, did you?

        3) the interface has been streamlined apparently. To some extent this is true - but again the developers seem to have stopped short of a finished product. Where some commands are indeed simplified (for the better) - some other painfully remind me of CTP where one had to dig multiple level to get to a specific function. Why not a spreadsheet-like system where you'd have different level of information displayed on overlapping pages ? Perhaps too processor intensive that... I don't know since I'm not a programmer.
        Well, the interface is at the same time more friendly, but lacking a lot on the 'advance' functions. You must use shortcuts. I hate shortcuts. So yes, they omitted a really big thing, and just gave us the basic commands easely accessible, which isn't a good idea in my opinion.

        4) the editor is on the surface all that I could have asked in order to customize the game to my heart's content - except that it's totally non-functionnal ! I tried making the building of the Settler unit dependant on the appearance of wheat (changed to be a strategic resource) and the knowledge of pottery only to have the game either protection-fault crash on me or start ok then churn & churn until it froze. This was to prevent the AI from overexpending as it tends to do in this newest iteration.
        The editor sucks, period =) They had to finish the game before christmas(stupid Infogrames) and had a choice : finish the game, or finish the editor? They chosed the game, and, even them, there are still some very 'big' bugs they really should have seen. They want to release upgrades to the editor with patches and all, so we'll see. I have to agree the game was more important tho... it really suck they had to rush it to store =(

        5) Finally the AI is both overagressive and extraordinarily stupid - a receipe for disaster - both in VL as in RL. I've seen the AI put cities in the middle of a waterless desert, on frozen tundra with no forest or games around just to deny me room for expension. While this is an interesting reflex - it could have been implemented with more finesse. The improved diplomatic system demonstrates the above better still: the AI is constently trying to score points off you - while this is fair - I deplore the lack of cooperation/coordination (especially when one civ is beholden to you {in awe of} between civilizations.
        I agree, the AI is stupid when extending, he just wants to build the most city possible, and don't care about development, infrastructure, corruption, etc. This is the part I don't like with the AI. However, he is clever at war, so he scores some points there. The diplomacy, well... If you have NO god military, they will just laugh you in the face and ask for deal whee you are obviously the looser, even witha strong culture(although it helps). BUT, if you have a strong army(you don't have to be at war), or if you capture some of their cities and if you have won previous wars, you can milk a LOT of thing from him. I mean, like 3 techs + 30 golds/turn for a tech and a luxury. This is somewhat logical, even if you are really nice, friendly and have lots of culture, but no mmilitary, why would he give you bonus? I mean, it's not like you are a treat to him. For example, look at US and Canada. US have obvioulsy the upper hand on the militar side and MOST of the diplomatic deals between them and Canada. Why? Because they are a super-power and can get away with it, Canada doesn't have much choice but to follow most of the time.

        For the positive side.

        a) the whole concept of Culture is interesting - from the expending borders to the civ-specific cultural attributes. However even here we can see the shallowness of it's design by the simple fact that any civ can get similar bonuses if they perform similar actions. There's no sense of uniqueness to any civilization.

        b) the integrated economic system is much better - I for one am not sad about the loss of caravans.

        All in all though Civ III is too lacking in depth to satisfy me. Well I've ranted long enough. If you have any comments - post away !


        G.
        So, all in all, what you want is a complex strategy game about the growth of civilizations, you just didn't wanted another Civilization game. Dunno why you bought it then =)
        -Karhgath

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree with you on some of teh shortcomings

          First of all, all the civs are too similar. The differences are insignificant; whether you pick the Indians or the Americans makes little difference overall.

          The governments are too similar and there are only really two choices: democracy and communism. This neither helps gameplay nor realism. From a gameplay point of view, you want as many choices as possible. In terms of realism, we still have countries using monarchy and feudalism to this day.

          Tech tree is too basic. Almost everyone ends up researching teh same thing They should have allowed more techs to be optional for age advancement. In addition, there is little point in having techs that give nothing, other than to allow you to research something higher up. If the goal is to penalize science oriented civs then they should have lengthened the research time for specific techs.

          KoalaBear33

          Comment


          • #6
            So, all in all, what you want is a complex strategy game about the growth of civilizations, you just didn't wanted another Civilization game. Dunno why you bought it then =)
            Becuz I hoped it would be different - innovative. I mean with exemples like EU around - which opened new vistas for strategy games - you would have thought that it would have inspired the firaxians ! And here in Canada (well in Montreal at least) you can't get a refund like with EBoutique in the States.



            G.

            Comment


            • #7
              I think you can get refunds at Future Shop... not sure tho =) I never had to return anything there.

              Well, I never expected Civ3 to be revolutionary. Only first time games are revolutionary, sequels and all usually are evolutionary. Civ3 is quite evolutionary, but certainly not revolutionary, hehe.

              If you compare to Civ2, the game is a big step, but in the same direction. Maybe you should look into Clash of Civs(look at the Apolyton homepage), but I think the project is dead... thatw as going to be quite complex, you can skim their design doc, quite good. For my part, my small startup co. might start by making a civ-like game, but for hardcore players... dunno if it will go thru tho.
              -Karhgath

              Comment


              • #8
                Civ III is "simplistic", linear, etc..., yes but they wanted it that way from the start. And I like it so far. Want something drastically complicated ??? You'll have to wait for MoO 3....
                The art of mastering:"la Maîtrise des caprices du subconscient avant tout".

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Why I've stoped playing Civ III

                  Originally posted by Grallon
                  2) it is also tediously simplistic - both in concept and execution. Granted the scope prevents such complexities one can see in Europa universalis but who said we must remain forever focused on an all-in one solution ? Why not a series of backward compatible games covering each an era in depth ? I dream of seeing a game where I can witness the failure and dislocation of my civilization - and it's rebirth into something new - different yet still akin to the precedent one... Alas a choice has been made (since CIV I) to put playability above realism - as if both were mutually exclusive ! Well perhaps it is for chronically hormone-impared teenboyz ...
                  G.
                  Even though I really like Civ3 (mostly because of the very good AI) and don't regret buying it, I can't help but let out a whistful sigh here and agree with you. I had hoped that Civ3 would be more revolutionary than evolutionary. Actually, because of the amount of time between when Civ2 and Civ3 came out, I kind of expected it.

                  With SMAC it had looked like they were testing the waters for more dramatic changes. Guess they got spooked or something.

                  Or...maybe it was all Brian Reynolds all along, and it's toward Big Huge Games that we should be looking for the next big splash in the genre??

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Or...maybe it was all Brian Reynolds all along, and it's toward Big Huge Games that we should be looking for the next big splash in the genre??

                    Heh... I read this and immediately went to www.bighugegames.com, and clicked on founders. At the bottom it says this:

                    *Although actually designed by Brian Reynolds, the games Civilization II, Alpha Centauri, and Colonization were originally marketed under the "Sid Meier" brand, e.g. as Sid Meier's Civilization II, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, and Sid Meier's Colonization.

                    Hmmm... makes ya wonder...
                    -Saber Cherry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I thank you for your honesty Grallon, it takes a lot to admit when a game you have been looking forward to ends up being either a turkey, or at the best - ordinary. Many children here at Apolyton cannot or will not do this, and therefore take out their frustration on those who speak truth. Also, I trust the opinion of the common punter more than that of the over inflated egoists like Yin and co.

                      I have personally spent countless hours playing Civ, Civ II and Smac, but most of all Colonization. I think I have played the genre to death, and was hoping Civ III would at least breath a little bit more life into such games for me, but from the reaction of this board, I don't think so.

                      I think it is time we started looking out for some new young genius with an utterly new concept in gaming, because Sid has grown too comfortable in his flabby old age. Sim Golf?
                      Dinosaurs?

                      Although I will refrain from buying Civ III, my last hopes for gaming now rest upon Master of Orion III, and the future work of a person whose input was desperately needed for Civ III - Brian Reynolds.

                      I'll say it again - Brain Reynolds - the real genius behind Colonization, Civ II and Smac.

                      Bkeela.

                      Edit: I didn't see the reference to Brian in the above posts - honestly! I'm glad I'm not alone in putting two and two together.
                      Last edited by Bkeela; November 9, 2001, 21:22.
                      Voluntary Human Extinction Movement http://www.vhemt.org/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The thing that really saves this game is the resource system... it makes it a lot more fun. This game is overall addictive, I like the diplomatic interactions more, and strategy is MUCH more important since I cannot micromanage my way to the top.

                        SMAC was better in some areas, the different factions were DIFFERENT! It is like having an entirely different game playing with Morgan or with Yang, Miriam or Zack. On an island miriam might have 5 techs by year 40 if she is lucky, Zack would have 12! In this game I feel like each of the "bonuses" is barely a bonus, commercial creates a 10% bonus to your econ, tops. Differences are really minimized. This may be more "fair", nothing like starting on and island as Miriam. But this lowers replayability a lot...

                        Overall I like this game, but it is nowhere as great as it could have been, and I think that Infrogames/Firaxis could have achieved that goal with just a little more work..

                        The modern age is so totally boring, the game is *over* at this point in time, nuke warfare is boring. I like the industrial age a lot though- Get that Iron!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Overall I like this game, but it is nowhere as great as it could have been, and I think that Infrogames/Firaxis could have achieved that goal with just a little more work..
                          For this fact alone, Civ III must be condemned.

                          Come on people, this is not an add on, this is not a Test of Time piece of crap. This is Civ III, from which we expected [with the input of the list] something truly great.

                          If you accept second best, you are contributing to the overall degeneration of gaming.

                          I don't know about you, but I don't want something fun, something to amuse me for a few weeks. I want to become obsessed.

                          Bkeela.
                          Voluntary Human Extinction Movement http://www.vhemt.org/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Play at a tougher level and put in crazy barbarians
                            Makes for a much more interresting game with a huge map, full civs and a medium-hard difficulty.
                            I never played any civ-type game before Civ3 and I'm having a blast with it. Sure, it gets a bit repetitive, but what game doesn't? I think it's a blast pitching AI vs AI to oust the suckers from *my* land

                            The major point I agree on is the AI placing cities in HORRIBLE places, just because there are a few open squares open in the middle of my/other's territories. However, I addressed this during the AI chat the other day, and it's being looked at for the patch.

                            With a few minor tweeks with a patch, civ3 is going to be even better. (grrrrrrr corruption in an expantionist civ!!!!!!)
                            How did I get here?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Come on people, this is not an add on, this is not a Test of Time piece of crap. This is Civ III, from which we expected [with the input of the list] something truly great.


                              Let me guess, you were at the forefront of critisizing Civ2? After all, if any game was merely an addon to the first one...
                              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                              Comment

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