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Victim of AI cheating??? Read this for an eyeful.

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  • Victim of AI cheating??? Read this for an eyeful.

    Rumble time regarding the computer AI:

    In order to learn the system (and see how the computer AI works) I'll often 'cheat' and load autosaves to redo a couple dozen or hundred years. I'm playing as the Persians, and doing pretty darned well on Regent level. After wiping out the Babylonians and the Zulus with an unbeatable battalion of Persian Immortals, the Russians (located on a completely separate continent) started sending Galleys loaded with your standard veteran warriors and/or spearmen--no match for my Immortals.

    Anyway, I noticed something highly suspect about the AI in the process of beating back the occasional mini-wannabee-horde. Bear in mind for the sake of the argument that I was at war with the Russian when this happened, and they had no knowledge of the continent I'd taken over (meaning they hadn't scouted it).

    The Russians dropped a warrior + settler off in a fringe area and built a city. This is not only annoying, it's also not handled as well as in Civ2. Competing Civs--whether they're expansionist or not--tend to build cities in absolutely any square that your culture is not, without regard for the 21 square "rule" on either side (meaning they'll build in any odd spot, even when it's to their disadvantage).

    Grumbling aside, the Russians built the city, and I dispatched one of my Immortals from one of my own nearby cities to invade the upstart Russian city. One turn later, a Russian Galley popped up along the coast next to the city from which I'd just dispatched my Immortal and unloaded several warriors. The Immortal had been the only unit defending the city--careless, I know. One turn later, the city was overtaken. I stopped and reloaded an older autosave to rectify my recklessness.

    This time, I kept the Immortal in the city and started building backups. Sure enough, on the same turn, the Russian boat Russian boat pulled up to the coast a few squares from my city...but this time it continued on its merry way...

    ...which brings me to the problem. That's flat out, poker-faced cheating. Without embassies and all the other special agreements, and certainly while you're at war, you're not supposed to be able to play peek-a-boo with enemy cities.

    The AI targeted that city from a couple dozen squares out (at sea) based on some kind of internal process that directs it to the weakest spots in your Civ.

    That's a serious problem, folks. For me, anyway. It means the AI's tracking your weak and strong spots on the sly.

  • #2
    The AI may in fact have more knowledge about the state of your defense than he has "earned", at any particular moment in time. That's true.

    Then again, the AI can't reload the game from autosaves whenever he doesn't like the outcome of a decision.

    Sounds like you're even to me.

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    • #3
      Yup, I knew that would come up. Still, I'm an imperfect human, not a number-crunching supercomputer. I'll worry about computer AI "equal rights" in a couple hundred years, not now.

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      • #4
        I've seen the same thing. A city with one defender is attacked to start a war and taken.

        Load autosave two turns ago... rush build something and bring in two more units from other cities. The enemy unit does not attack.

        Another case of AI cheating, which IMO would be fine -if it was documented-

        another cheap way of making the AI tougher... some may like it and some may not. Given we can replay from saves it seems even but I wish they would tell us up front how the AI cheats.

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        • #5
          you should have expect this kid, did they told you already that AI cheats?
          ==========================
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          • #6
            Doesn't he "see" that the city was undefended when he gets his boat near ?
            If you were in my movie...

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            • #7
              Well, in any case, I don't think it should be happening unless you're playing on Deity level. When I pick Regent, I'm doing it because I want to strike a certain balance. When the AI cheats that indiscriminately...it just kind of takes the fun out of playing for me.

              And it's Civ3 we're talking about, not Civ1, so I'm three times *less* forgiving.

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              • #8
                *** Doesn't he "see" that the city was undefended when he gets his boat near ? ***

                I don't think so, but in my situation, the Galley was far enough away from the city when it disembarked to hammer home the point that there was some "illegal" covert AI spying going on.

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                • #9
                  I seem to remember this same issue coming up for StarCraft, and I didn't particularlly care for the answer.

                  I can't remember what it was though.

                  I believe it was something along the lines of it being extremely difficulty to code in fog of war for the AI.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Setsuna
                    I seem to remember this same issue coming up for StarCraft, and I didn't particularlly care for the answer.
                    In Starcraft, the only cheating the AI does is that it can see the whole map (no other cheating present). Blizz said that it was necessary. I think the computer also saw your hidden units (cloaked, burrowed, etc) but had to follow the rules of combat (ie. can't attack cloacked without detection units).

                    I think it is all right for the computer to cheat if that is required to present a challenge to the human.

                    KoalaBear33

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                    • #11
                      Personally, I would rather play by the same rules as the AI. I never did like the idea of making the game harder by making giving the AI a handicap instead of making it smarter.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by KoalaBear33


                        In Starcraft, the only cheating the AI does is that it can see the whole map (no other cheating present). Blizz said that it was necessary. I think the computer also saw your hidden units (cloaked, burrowed, etc) but had to follow the rules of combat (ie. can't attack cloacked without detection units).

                        I think it is all right for the computer to cheat if that is required to present a challenge to the human.

                        KoalaBear33
                        I think it may have cheated more than that. As with AoE, C&C, WC, SC all use the same tactic of counters. Which is gay. They counter to the units they "see" or can always see, counter to the buildings you build, and they can also insta-build. Units are built in 0.01 seconds as are buildings. You can see this if you rush AI with say Villagers, builders, or normal orcs, etc. Say you give the AI one Builder, and no resources, and you give yourself 20 builders, by the time you get to them, say 30 seconds later, they have a couple buildings, and military units. It's quite extraordinary.

                        The AI has a special discount in this game, thier units cost so little it's not even right. I think production costs are really low, and they pay little gold to upkeep.
                        A wise man once said, "Games are never finished, only published."

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                        • #13
                          I'm going to dual major in Computer Science and Philosophy in order to get into my Uni's Minds & Machines program. As you can probably guess, the program's all about AI. Truth be known, we are so far away from creating true AI that's we can't even fathom how far away we actually are (pretty far, huh? :P)! We can't make the AI in the game play like a human plays (there are just too many circumstances to account for), so the only alternative is to give it a standard set of strategies and play by them. As long as there is balance, this is an acceptable method of gameplay. Balance is by far the most important factor when you consider the fairness of the game.

                          Heh....Strom used WC as an example. Please never mention an RTS in this forum again, for my sake, and for the love of god! :P

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                          • #14
                            Hehe, yeah I play RTS, but I don't condone it as something to aspire to. Only if you really want to be constantly clicking, and constantly nervous. It can be fun.

                            But again, nothing compared to TB games.
                            A wise man once said, "Games are never finished, only published."

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                            • #15
                              .

                              to the first post. That is one of the reason I have yet to see the industrail age. I get bored before I get there of the game. The AI kind of ruins the expeirence cause it "always knows". THing get really wacky, citys all over the place. Then I think to myself the fukin Ao is somehow able to build a **** laod of units and expand!!! starts driving me nuts. OS I quit becaues it pisses off. Last game I was hurting the Iriqoues nation badly, but then finally all the other civs start expanding like crazy around me . taking resources that are in mt"land area" (#(I$*& pisses the **** out of me!!).

                              I think of my last game. The romains expanded nicely while somehow in the process of putting out literally 30-40 military units.

                              this drives me up the wall. I ti slike I just want to figure out how to beat the AI. i could care less about finishing a game sometimes(i never play on easy level, cause then I know the AI has gottent he best of me!)

                              ok, I am going break something. #&$&^# AI PISSES THE **** Of OF ME!!!!!!!!!!#$# #$(# #($ &#( &$#( #( # MOTHER #$*# #($*#


                              HiTS KEYBOARD!!!! FUK!

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