Open letter to Firaxis...problems with Civ III

[Blackadar1]

Sid and the rest of the gang:

I'd like to congratulate you on Civ III - it has wonderful...potential. But there are some serious gameplay problems with Civ III that absolutely causes major problems. The one I'd most like to point out are the "resources" - you know, the ones that you need to possess to build certain units? Great idea...except in the following example.

I had one of 3 major continents completely to myself and was leading the tech race. All was good. I was playing my normal isolationist/appeasment scheme and was winning handily. However, when it came time to the modern era...I was left with no source of oil. None. Zero. I wasn't strong enough, nor did I wish to, invade my competitor for oil. However, he had only one source as well, so I couldn't trade for it either. So there I am, in mid-late game, I cannot build ANY of the modern units. No tanks. No mechanized armor. No battleships. No planes. NOTHING. Well, you can probably guess what happened. My compeitors got to build those units and wiped me out pretty handily at the end of the game as I was using Marines and Infantry against Tanks and Airplanes.

Frankly, this is an unexcusable gameplay balance oversight. If you're going to require pretty much all of the units from an era to have a resource, you need to make sure it's pretty damned available. Essentially, I was dealt a losing hand, but I didn't even know that until I had invested almost 15 hours in the game. Come on, guys - that's just not fun.

Also, I have a couple of other suggestions for a patch:

- Tone down the pollution a bit. Besides trying to fend of hordes of units, I felt like little more than a janitor running around trying to clean up pollution. It takes so long to clean up that it just got absurd after a while - the map looked like an uncleaned rollercoaster exit from RollerCoaster tycoon. Puke all over the place.

- The AI has problems. Not only do they consistently invade my borders after REPEATED attempts to keep them at bay, but I've had the AI make a mutual defense pact with me and invade me the very next turn. That's not much fun, either.

- War weariness needs to be modified. In the above scenario, problems were compounded because the AI wouldn't even talk to me, even after repeated attempts. Well, my people kept getting more upset...causing more riots...reducing my productivity and my ability to defend myself...causing the AI to be more aggressive...causing my people to get even more upset...causing more riots...get the point? The AI should not cause the player to get into a "death spiral".

Thanks for your understanding. These are all issues that can easily be solved with a patch which would make the game much more enjoyable.

Blackadar
Owner of Civ III and pretty much every other Sid game made in the last 15 years.

[Yossarian]

As Captain Miller said in Saving Private Ryan, "Pay attention, this is how you gripe."

Well written. Did you also send it to Firaxis directly?

[Blackadar1]

Yea, it went to askthecivteam@firaxis.com

[CygnusZ]

What you describe really sounds like the strengths of the game. You were supposed to have diplomacy and relations with other nations, not to mention going into mutual protection pacts. It was because you neglected the diplomacy that you lost, not simply because you didn't have access to oil.

In my last game I didn't have any access to rubber. Did it get in the way of my getting tanks? HELL NO! I just traded in a lot of gold for Rubber from the Indians and pumped out as many tanks as I could in the 20 turns I got the resource, and I could have renewed the deal if I felt it necessary.

Another memory was an invasion of an island a bit away from the mainland. I took an English city and went into the build screen. I was shocked to see that I was back to building spearmen. I had a good laugh and built a harbor, but it goes to show that resources are central to the game just like how they are central to real civilizations.

The limited resources are good because they can allow a weaker civilization to overcome a greater civilization through time. They are the great equalizer. If you're an isolationist civ, you deserve to lose.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Blackadar1
Yea, it went to askthecivteam@firaxis.com

Resource distribution is driven by settings that can be modified in the editor, so that may be one thing you can start playing with that will (in your case) pay dividends pretty quickly.

Check out the world sizes tab of the rules pages in the editor, you can increase the distribution probability which will mean more of that resource will be seeded in each map.


Dan

[Blackadar1]

Signus, it's obvious that you didn't read my post - or perhaps I wasn't clear enough. There were 3 civs left - mine was one. There wasn't ANY oil available via any of the trade screens at any time. Each of the other 2 civs had 1 oil resource and, of course, they were using it. I had a ton of gold that I would have gladly given up for any oil - but there was none to be had. I wasn't playing totally isolationist. I was actively trading and making diplomatic deals. I just had my version of "fortress Europa" going where I was on the defensive militarily with no conquest in mind.

Dan, I appreciate the response. But playing on a "normal" map against 5 starting civs, I shouldn't have to go around playing in the editor to ensure that I'll have a "winnable" game. That is a programming issue. Frankly, IMHO, oil should NOT be a prerequisite for all of the later units. The great thing about horses, iron, etc. is that even if you don't possess one them, you can still get around and function. It may make it more difficult, but you can still produce archers, longbowmen, etc. that can help compensate for the lack of natural resources. Heck, I had no access to iron and got around it by making longbowmen and calvary. That was a fun challenge.

You start getting into saltpeper (sort of) and oil and you find you can't live without them. That is a major gameplay issue that should be closely examined. That's not a fun challenge - it's the equivalent of handing the player a losing hand due to no fault of his/her own.

[ProfessorPhobos]

This isn't really the game's fault. Your going to have to vary your tactics between aggression and pacifism throughout the game. At least that's been my experience so far. It's much harder to win- resources are actually important now.

A lot of the problems people are having aren't because the game is poorly balanced- it's perfectly balanced...it's just not Civ2...old strategies no longer work. Adapt or Die, etc etc.

[Dan Magaha FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by Blackadar1
Dan, I appreciate the response. But playing on a "normal" map against 5 starting civs, I shouldn't have to go around playing in the editor to ensure that I'll have a "winnable" game. That is a programming issue. Frankly, IMHO, oil should NOT be a prerequisite for all of the later units. The great thing about horses, iron, etc. is that even if you don't possess one them, you can still get around and function. It may make it more difficult, but you can still produce archers, longbowmen, etc. that can help compensate for the lack of natural resources. Heck, I had no access to iron and got around it by making longbowmen and calvary. That was a fun challenge.

You start getting into saltpeper (sort of) and oil and you find you can't live without them. That is a major gameplay issue that should be closely examined. That's not a fun challenge - it's the equivalent of handing the player a losing hand due to no fault of his/her own.

Well, just for clarification, all I'm saying is the editor allows you tweak the game to play differently if you don't agree with our design choices. If you want to remove the oil prereq from some or all of the units, you can do that. And if you think oil should be more common, you can do that too.

Both of the issues you seem to have with the way the game plays are conscious design choices that were made to make the game more fun, and in my experience thus far, most people do seem to enjoy them. But, as I said, different strokes for different folks. The editor will allow you to bypass these challenges if they make the game less fun for you.

Dan

[Blackadar1]

I disagree, prof.

Perhaps my experience is out of the norm. But, if not - heck, even if it happens in 1 out of every 10 games - the game is almost dictating a style of play. Frankly, it'd be back to the MONGOLS style. Just build military units so you'd be assured of being able to capture resources.

I just think that oil and uranium are too damned important to be random resources. It's not like you can see where they are placed early in the game and rush to capture them. For example, say you're evenly matched (or even close) with another Civ and the only oil pops up deep in their territory - where you can't reach because they can withstand your attack. If you can't trade for it (like I couldn't), well, game over - you lost. That's not fun - that's randomly picking a winner. If the tables had been reversed, I would have been the winner, but I wouldn't have earned it. There are no tactics involved here, unless you consider picking a difficultly level that allows you to conquer the entire world (or the majority of it) before the advent of oil a "tactic".

Luck always plays a role, but great games give the player the opportunity to overcome bad luck. In this case, there is no opportunity to recover and you have no advance warning that this is about to happen to prepare for it. That's not tactics, bud. That's a gameplay and balance issue.

Dan, again, I appreciate the prompness of the rssponse. And I'm sure this is a rare case where the appearance of a resource (or the lack of one) causes the player to have no chance of winning. However, it would be a very simple fix to ensure that all continents, and maybe even all civs above a certain population size, have access to such a vital resource when it appears.

[CygnusZ]

You know, I noticed that problem too. I couldn't get the Indian's to trade rubber with me at first. I eventually went to the "Trade" screen and saw it suddenly available. Really weird, because I wanted to trade strategic resources before (I had 6 horses) but the option just didn't appear on my diplomacy screen. I think its some sort of bug maybe?

Anyway, worst comes to worst, you can always have your allies and yourself beat up on the remaining civ until you seize their supply of oil.

Maybe there needs to be more resources in greater concentration? I don't like the idea of all civs having access to all the resources, but if a civ has oil, they should have oil

[OctaviusIII]

Not a player but...

I've been spending a lot of time in the Master of Orion 3 forums which has given me a little bit of an idea of what should have happened: give the player OPTIONS.

If oil and uranium are so important, they should have comparable unit concepts which use something like steam power or gunpowder or something. The only reason that we use oil a lot today is because it packs a lot of punch in a very easy-to-use package.

Or, if the team doesn't want to get conceptual, vital resources should be more common or else it becomes a luck-of-the-draw situation. Perhaps to keep the same strategic elements in place, oil could be concentrated in certain areas rather than spread around. That way you really could trade for oil. That's what the designers should have done (not to mention design test it w/ fans).

As for the best thing with the game as-is, just suck it up and use the editor for future games. It's a shame the team didn't think of such a situation, but oh well. I guess we should just know that Sid Meier makes mistakes... even big ones.

Oh, and as for the death-spiral... why didn't the attacking Civ get a similar response from its population? The AI should have exactly the same rules as the player. Period. Or maybe I'm just missing something only a player would catch...

[samsmithnz]

I ahve a question regarding this oil/rubber thing. I don't have civ3 yet, cos i live down under, but what happens when you save just before you research oil? Does the oil resource always appear in the same place, or is it completely random?

Also, what happens when You discover oil, and you find it's only in your opponents land, but they are still in the dark ages and haven't discovered oil yet. Can you still trade for it???

[TheDarkside]

I have to disagree about the resource thign. I kinda like that idea. I've been in the same situation but I realized I had to act fast to capture that source of oil and I did, before they got to build those tanks and airplanes Yes it would require you to change your isolationist policy but hey, its either adapt or be eaten in the real world

But I do agree on war weariness- particularly when some attacks you! This makes ABSOLUTELY no sense and I'm convinced who ever programmed the war weariness did not stop and think before typing in his formulas and algorithms... Since when does a country that gets attacked go into anti-war protests?! They didnt have a choice! If China suddenly invaded Taiwan- would you think A. The Tawainese would be spurred on by a new sense of nationalism and actually fight better with more patriotism, or B. Tawain will go into massive revolts in protest of the war which Taiwan had no dicision in? Here's a hint, think New York City Sept. 11th.

[MORON]

.....hum.......

The Japanese in WWII didn't have oil, and they had to fight a country with 10times the industrial power to get it.........


Well, a game is a game....

[Blackadar1]

I kinda like that idea. I've been in the same situation but I realized I had to act fast to capture that source of oil and I did, before they got to build those tanks and airplanes Yes it would require you to change your isolationist policy but hey, its either adapt or be eaten in the real world

Yea, but this kind of forces you into being in a position to be able to take on the toughest Civ at the advent of the age of oil. Essentially, this dicates a style of play toward a militaristic bent. Perhaps it's just my wish for a "kinder, gentler" Civ - one bent more toward Culture and diplomacy - which is what Firaxis was aiming for, or so they said in numerous interviews/previews with the media.

Actually, the simplest solution would be remove the dependency of oil on some of the units. Say, keep tanks on Oil but allow the player to build Mech. Armor and some air units - ethanol, pehaps? Yes, this can be accomplished via the editor, but just because it can be changed doesn't mean it's a poor balancing decision by Firaxis. I actually like the idea of resources. I just think that oil was made waaaaaaaaaaaaay too important and is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too random to be that important.

Note I did not say bug, because it most certainly is not a bug.