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  • #1

    Histograph worries

    Has anyone else noticed that in every histograph in-game screen shot released the Human player is always the most powerful? I mean the computer players are never even close! This makes me wonder how good the AI really is..... Granted, the person could have been playing on the easiest level but even the one's released from Firaxis showed this and supposedly they weren't winning on the highest levels or still playing playing on chieftan or warlord.....
    I hope I'm just a worry wart and this is not the signs of a poor CTPish AI....
    "To live again, to be.........again" Captain Kirk in some Star Trek Episode. (The one with the bad guy named Henok)
    "One day you may have to think for yourself and heaven help us all when that time comes" Some condescending jerk.
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  • #2
    All civ AI is pathetic...why would civ3 be any different?

    An Artificial Idiot isnt going to give any of us a challenge for long. Its only a matter of time before the patterns are figured out and deity level becomes a walk in the park.
    I see the world through bloodshot eyes
    Streets filled with blood from distant lies.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by drake
      All civ AI is pathetic...why would civ3 be any different?

      An Artificial Idiot isnt going to give any of us a challenge for long. Its only a matter of time before the patterns are figured out and deity level becomes a walk in the park.
      What you do is NOT follow the correct counter-pattern and see if you can do it...

      I hope the AI is better than you think.

      If it isn't, what would be neat is if the AI recognized if you were doing an anti-AI pattern and changed IT'S strategy completely to counter, in a rock-paper-scissors fashion with ~three separate AI scripts (too much to ask, I know).

      But hopefully the AI poses a challenge.

      *remembers CivII manual - "not even the people who made the game can beat the computer on Deity consistently"*
      Your.Master

      High Lord of Good

      You are unique, just like everybody else.

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      • #4
        Hey I hope its a challenge too

        Might be worth playing a few games. I'm just very pessimistic. I have yet to play any game, of any genre that has an AI worth a crap. Enough playing time and just about any AI can be cracked.

        "not even the people who made the game can beat the computer on Deity consistently"
        I see the world through bloodshot eyes
        Streets filled with blood from distant lies.

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        • #5
          Re: Hey I hope its a challenge too

          Originally posted by drake
          I have yet to play any game, of any genre that has an AI worth a crap.
          You must be a really good chess player, then...

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          • #6
            Never ventured into that realm gs

            Chess certainly has a lot of variables, but not even close to the same amount as a game like civ.

            I am guessing it would be harder to write a very difficult AI code for civ, than a very diificult AI code for chess.

            Course I could be wrong
            I see the world through bloodshot eyes
            Streets filled with blood from distant lies.

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            • #7
              I am concerned as well. Yin posted a Korean review where the AI seems to be acting very... AI.

              We shall se...
              To be one with the Universe is to be very lonely - John Doe - Datalinks

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              • #8
                Originally posted by drake
                Never ventured into that realm gs

                Chess certainly has a lot of variables, but not even close to the same amount as a game like civ.

                I am guessing it would be harder to write a very difficult AI code for civ, than a very diificult AI code for chess.

                Course I could be wrong
                Actually, I'm not sure about that. Chess is a very well known game around the world, and there are many programmers who have worked and competed against each other to create difficult AIs for chess. Also, the rules of chess are standard . Civ, on the other hand, is constantly evolving and there is only one small group of people with little competition (CTP doesn't count) developing an AI for it. If they released the source code or whatever is needed to modify the AI and several groups of programmers were to compete to make the best AI for it, then they might eventually get an AI that could hold its own on deity.

                I really feel that AI is something that games often neglect to develop fully in order to cut corners, as stuff like cool graphics and features seem to be noticed far before the AI by most casual gamers. Also, casual gamers may get frustrated by difficult AI.

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                • #9
                  Dan has said sevral times that Firaxis testers had a cheap mode they were using. So don't judge the AI until you play the game. You just might be shocked at how skilled it is.

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                  • #10
                    Well, to tell you the truth, I can't even read the histograph. The one for Civ2 was better because it compared you with a 0. THis one doesn't make any sense. Is it just whoever has the thickest line or what?
                    "Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito Mussolini

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dennis580
                      Dan has said sevral times that Firaxis testers had a cheap mode they were using. So don't judge the AI until you play the game. You just might be shocked at how skilled it is.
                      Yes, perhaps that's it!! But my mind would be more at ease had they posted some histographs with the computer ahead.....
                      "To live again, to be.........again" Captain Kirk in some Star Trek Episode. (The one with the bad guy named Henok)
                      "One day you may have to think for yourself and heaven help us all when that time comes" Some condescending jerk.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
                        Well, to tell you the truth, I can't even read the histograph. The one for Civ2 was better because it compared you with a 0. THis one doesn't make any sense. Is it just whoever has the thickest line or what?
                        I read it as whomever is the thickest at the bottom of the graph is ahead or has won.
                        "To live again, to be.........again" Captain Kirk in some Star Trek Episode. (The one with the bad guy named Henok)
                        "One day you may have to think for yourself and heaven help us all when that time comes" Some condescending jerk.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          I read it as whomever is the thickest at the bottom of the graph is ahead or has won
                          Which sucks because your strength is only relative to the other players in the game. If i want to compare myself from game to game, I may be stronger in one of them, but couldn't tell because all oft he other civs are 3x stronger in my game than in the last one.
                          "Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito Mussolini

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                          • #14
                            Well, the AI doesn't matter that much as we can get a good challenge from MP.
                            'No room for human error, and really it's thousands of times safer than letting drivers do it. But the one in ten million has come up once again, and the the cause of the accident is sits, something in the silicon.' - The Gold Coast - Kim Stanley Robinson

                            'Feels just like I can take a thousand miles in my stride hey yey' - Oh, Baby - Rhianna

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by drake
                              Never ventured into that realm gs

                              Chess certainly has a lot of variables, but not even close to the same amount as a game like civ.

                              I am guessing it would be harder to write a very difficult AI code for civ, than a very diificult AI code for chess.

                              Course I could be wrong
                              Actually, chess is hard due to the horizon effect....one move outside of the search "window" (move 8 if you can search 7 moves ahead) can upset the board, forcing something called a quiescence search to be made. Second to Go, chess is the most challenging AI to do well. Most chess AI's are technically not doing 100% AI work, but are consulting opening and endgame databases for as long as possible.

                              Though chess has a smaller branching factor than Civ, Civ is not a game where the board is 100% visibile to all sides. The AI must then rely on perceptors.

                              Being Civ is not a zero sum game with a revealed board, AI comparisions between Civ and Chess are a mute point.

                              Any other C.S. majors feel free to dispute....I just don't think it's a valid comparision.

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