VERY interesting bits from a Korean review...

[yin26]

First, the credit for finding this article goes to Anatolia who found the article and talked about it a bit here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=30290. But since the title of his thread is about the release date in Korea, I thought people might miss this. (Hope you don't mind, Anatolia! ) And while I am by no means an expert translator, I found the following parts to be VERY interesting for two reasons:

1) You can see how much a history game matters to a people who have gotten the short end of the stick in history books for the past 100 years and;
2) This guy gives the most info on AI yet from ANY review I have seen.

The most elaborate change in ver. 1.0 is certainly in diplomacy. In Civ. 3, 16 civilizations make their appearance. From the most famous Romans to the Japanese (why they were put in, I have no idea), nearly all the great ancient civilizations are included. While a Starcraft master can beat 7 computer opponents, it is a question whether such a thing is possible in Civ3. This is because the AI is no joke.

But no matter how friendly I tried to be, eventually you have to go to war. In the early stages, you can keep diplomatic relations even. But as time goes by, differences appear in the relationships between countries and the requests become unreasonable. You can refuse kindly about two times, but that, too, has its limits. Eventually diplomacy fails and you are thrown into battle.

Once, this thing happened: About the middle of the game, suddenly France requested an alliance. It was no simple alliance as I was now expected to attack Persia. At the time, Persia and I had no relations whatsoever. As the battle then looked bad for Persia, I happily agreed. Soon I entered the battle against Persia. But Persia wasn't attacking France at all...only me! Now I was getting nervous when suddenly France cut its alliance with me and established peace with Persia, hitting me like a slap in the head. If that's not cause to wonder at the AI, it was a moment when my body nearly fell over in betrayal.

Some worries I had as I played Civ3 are the problems of cultural distortion and unit balance. Of course I wasn't pleased to see Japan appear as an ancient civilization, but I was more worried that "Wouldn't this distort history?" Knowing that games are particularly popular among students, it is possible for them to learn the wrong version of history this way. Seriously, there are so many students in the United States who think that The History of the Three Kingdoms is about Japan. This is because KOEI made the game and naturally students would make that assumption. There are fans of this masterpiece series around the world, so we must make sure to remove such errors. And I hope that the unit imbalances from previous Civs will be solved. The key point being that Middle Age units weren't such a problem but consider the 20th century missiles and tanks and the problems of balance there.

[Earthling7]

Interesting stuff, but I am concerned about the France/Persia affair. I hope this was a deliberate betrayal, not just a stupid AI stupidity.

[Tingkai]

Re: VERY interesting bits from a Korean review...

"From the most famous Romans to the Japanese"

Nice jab at the Japanese. I'd read it as meaning from the famous to the infamous.

[yin26]

Earthling7: Yes, I thought exactly the same thing, actually.

By the way, he also said:

It's too bad there is no multiplayer.

[yin26]

Tingkai: His point is that Japan is nowhere near being an ancient empire compared to Korea...or just in general, actually. He never says Korea should come before Japan...but should Japan come before Korea? That is the hidden meaning.

[SITS]

Thanks for the info Yin. I like hearing how other countries view the world and I can see how Koreans could be miffed at the inclusion of Japan before themselves. Seem to remember reading that it was proved that the Japanese genetically came from Korea which has been an issue between the two cultures for a long time.

It does look like the AI is robust and I like the idea of France stiffing the human like that....

[yin26]

No prob, SITS. It's pretty well established that the Japanese culture owes its start to the Koreans...who in turn borrowed a lot from the Chinese but were definitely a culture of their own. Now, since most contemporary players will think of Japan as a 20th century powerhouse, the author of the article is trying to take a broader historical picture...rightfully so from the standpoint of overall history...maybe not such an easy sell, however.

[Grumbold]

More worryingly is why France and Persia were not attacking each other properly. I hope there was a good reason for that. Why could Persia ignore France? Difficult to tell without actually having seen the game played.

[Solver]

Yin, many thanks! This really is the best information released about AI thus far. If it will really be betrayor often. Well, I will play my first game with 8 civs, not 16, I've changed my mind. And on Warlord, probably. Let's see how good he is. I really hope that even at Warlord it will give me some trouble. Did I miss something, or wasn't it mentioned at which level was the France/Persia thing done. Anyway, if this will happen so often, it's awesome. I'm celebrating this loudly now here.

[Robert]

the France / Persia thing is something that happens in Civ2 all the time

[Deathwalker]

I just hope this is not a sign that the AI is even more stupid that Civ 1

[Sarxis]

The AI that the reviewer describes sounds A LOT like the AI from SMAC. The kind of stuff he described happens all to often in SMAC diplomacy.

As far as his comments on 'unit inbalances': at first I thought he might be referring to the UUs, but this doesn't seem to be the case..

The key point being that Middle Age units weren't such a problem but consider the 20th century missiles and tanks and the problems of balance there.

I am not too sure, but I think he may be saying that once you get the more 'modern' hardware, there just isn't any hope to fight against you. And this does seem to be the case when you look at the Modern Armor stats, and the bombard abilities of the missile. But shouldn't it be that way anyhow? I mean, missiles and M1 tanks against any other ground force-- no contest!

And what's his gripe with Japan anyhow? Yeah, I know- Japan isn't such a big deal in Korea; but they certainly were a big deal in WWII.

[Rosacrux]

Korea vs Japan

I am trying to understand historical duels and among those I have looked over is the famous Korea/Japan thing. Before the numerous wars, invasions etc. etc. the whole thing seems to date back - as previously mentioned - to the beginning of Japan - not the Japanese civilization, that came later and was pretty distinct from the Korean or the Chinese (allthough both Korea and Japan have learned a great deal from their contacts with China).

Here is some data on the establishment of the first Korean settlers (kind of, anyway) in Japan:

Before the 200s BCE Japan was very sparsely populated with people who were still using stone tools and living by hunting, fishing and gathering food that grew wild. Then, in 200s, on Japan’s major southern island, Kyushu, a culture with iron, bronze, tool making and wet-rice agriculture appeared. The new culture is believed to have come with migrants, perhaps from Korea -- the shortest distance from the Asian mainland, where such ways of living already existed.

People with the new culture, called Yayoi-Japanese, expanded against native people, and around the time of Jesus they reached the Kanto plain, where Tokyo would one day be. They raised horses and cows, hunted and fished, and grew rice where they could. From their contacts with the Asian mainland they acquired the potter's wheel, and they improved their kiln techniques. From China and Korea they imported coins, bronze mirrors, bracelets and beads, iron and bronze knives and swords. They began smelting their own iron, making swords, saws, nails and clamps.

With a greater supply of food, the population of the Yayoi-Japanese grew rapidly. They were perhaps healthier than other peoples in Japan, and they continued to spread and to displace native peoples. By the year 100 (in the Common Era) the agricultural Japanese had pushed into northeastern Honshu. They pushed against and absorbed those called Ainu, who are believed to have lived more in the northern half of -- a people with blue eyes and lighter skins, and with more hair than most Asians, perhaps accounting for the greater hairiness of today's Japanese.

Soon a highway system facilitated movement of people and goods, and the Yayoi-Japanese developed a fleet of ships that moved goods up and down Japan's coast and between Japan and the Asian continent. Closer ties between Japan and Korea developed. Literate Koreans and Koreans with other skills were in great demand in Japan, and such Koreans who came to Japan were given noble rank. The Yayoi-Japanese imported iron from Korea, with which they made plows, hoes, sickles, axes, adzes and chisels.

(...) Queen Jingo and her son, Ojin, send a military expedition to Korea. Gentle winds and god-like fish are said to have helped their armada cross the sea to Korea, so that no oars had to be used. Then, according to legend, a vast tidal wave carried the fleet inland, into the kingdom of Silla. The surprised and terrified Koreans are said to have surrendered at once and to have promised to pay homage and tribute to Queen Jingo until the sun rose in the west, rivers flowed backwards and stones turned into stars.


One of the more successful ruling families was the Yamato. The Yamato family dominated the agriculturally productive plain near what are now the cities of Osaka and Kyoto. As elsewhere in the world of civilization and empire, those rulers whom the Yamato conquered remained as local lords and paid tribute to the Yamato ruler. The local lords were watched by Yamato subordinates territorial administrators, technical experts and scribes. A hierarchy of authority had developed, with the local lords remaining proud of their family and conscious of their own powers and potential powers.

The Yamato rulers called themselves Tenno, or heavenly ruler, and the Yamato family believed that they were directly descended from Jimmu and the gods and that they ruled by divine right. The Yamato spread their rule northward onto the Kanto plain and to most other areas populated by the Yayoi-Japanese.

During the 300s, the Yamato spread their rule to the southern coast of Korea, to an enclave they called Mimana. Soon the Korean kingdoms of Paekche and Silla were paying the Yamato tribute.

The exempts in bold show the earlier (fictional or historical) conflicts between the two nations. I am sure Yin could come up with something more accurate. This data goes only to 500 AD - if someone wants more for later periods in the Japan-Korea relations, just ask.

[yin26]

Well, in case you guys missed my Korea thread earlier, here it is: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=25219 Be warned, it goes VERY off-topic and all over the place at points. Pay attention to the second page where I show you images of what the Japanese did to the Koreans.

As for Korean-Japanese relations, I think you can see they were tense (and still are). What is not in dispute, however, is that Korea seeded Japan. Does this mean Korea should be in Civ3 before Japan? Well, I think it's only part of the story...but an important one.

Anyway, as for the AI described above: If what we have is basically SMAC and Civ2 AI (in diplomacy at least), there will be MAJOR TWEAKING that will have to take place...to put it kindly.

[BigBopper]

I am very excited about the A.I. (It's from Sid after all). I will asume that its brilliant, until I'm proven wrong. As for a starting level, I plan to start playing at Prince, where the AI is full strength, but doesn't cheat. Hopefully It will kick my butt a few times.