hard time for science oriented players

[cort]

in the previous civ installments, after you increase the technological gap between you and your opponents above a certain limit, that was very hard for your foes to beat you (not mentioning AI) because you could produce more advanced units than they were capable of resisting..

however, considering the new resource system, things will not be the same again.. say you invent gunpowder but dont have access to saltpeter.. what you are going to do? try to gather it through trade.. but u know what; you are the first civ to discover gunpowder, therefore no other civ is producing saltpeter.. your new invention is useless..

wonder whether you will be able to see resource tiles in your opponents territories.. in that case at least you can try to capture the resource..

anyway.. playing the game will be stange..

[Yoleus]

the need for resources

When you discover saltpeter, you start trading for maps... I think in this way you SHOULD see where to "grab" it...
And anyway, war is need-driven, like "you got something that I want"

[Yoleus]

Or you can make friend with the biggest resource producer, trade science with him and then trade the resource...
How do you think the Arabs made their money?

[Civ Dave]

It'll certainly make it more real....

like I found it od how Japan could always make everything in Civ2, even though they were on an island, cut off from EVERYTHING else....

I mean, how much crap is on that island anyways?

I think its one of the best ideas for Civ in a long time

[Crouchback]

ICS

Well someone was going to mention it here so I'll be the first.

You only need one lot to supply the entire nation, so it will probably work out, but the competition for strategic resources is going to encourage people to spread out a bit making sure they've got a good chance of getting everything the need. As an alternative, the pure scientist could try trading gunpowder technology with a trusted (weaker) ally in the hope of securing a supply.

David

[Yoleus]

Strategy

The global answer is:
strategy!
Just science is not enough, you have to wage war, speak diplomacy and play on every chessboard you are given

[Yoleus]

Originally posted by Crouchback
You only need one lot to supply the entire nation, so it will probably work out, but the competition for strategic resources is going to encourage people to spread out a bit making sure they've got a good chance of getting everything the need. As an alternative, the pure scientist could try trading gunpowder technology with a trusted (weaker) ally in the hope of securing a supply.

I think we agree

[cort]

Originally posted by Crouchback
ICS

As an alternative, the pure scientist could try trading gunpowder technology with a trusted (weaker) ally in the hope of securing a supply.

David

problem is this; you can not know whether or not he will have saltpeter. you give the tech to a weaker ally and he has no saltpeter. whats worse, he trades the gunpowder to one of your foes who has saltpeter and he uses it against you..

personally, i NEVER trade science with other civs because (unlike reallife) you cannot control their relations with third party.

[old dog]

I think that this improves the game immeasurably.

I had forgotten this, but back when I first started playing Civ 1, I assumed it was a good idea to explore and colonize. In time, I realized that the benefits were limited. After all, distant cities offered distinct disadvantages, but no real upside. Now, colonization will be worthwhile for the very realistic reason that you can gather resources. And the need to defend these far flung operations will add spice to military strategy.

As to your original point, cort, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. When I discover gunpowder, will I instantly see saltpeter on the land that I have already explored? Or will I need to reexamine that land? Will other civs be able to see the saltpeter that I can see? And what percentage of the saltpeter is immediately visible, and what percentage is discovered while working tiles? Gameplay depends on the answer to these questions.

But here's my guess. The game will still allow a technological strategy, but not an isolationist technological strategy. I know that some of my earliest wins were on islands far from everyone, where I just kept to myself and amassed a technological lead before beginning to interact with the world. I'll bet that that strategy will become ineffective... However, if my tech advantage becomes an advantage in knowing what areas to colonize, then this could add a major new theme to the game.

[Jason Beaudoin]

Originally posted by cort:
personally, i NEVER trade science with other civs because (unlike reallife) you cannot control their relations with third party.

How do you keep up with science on more difficult levels? (king and up) If various civilizations are trading techs and you're not, then you would fall behind right?

Originally posted by cort:
say you invent gunpowder but dont have access to saltpeter.. what you are going to do? try to gather it through trade.. but u know what; you are the first civ to discover gunpowder, therefore no other civ is producing saltpeter.. your new invention is useless..

Well, that will be a strategic problem that you will have to solve when that time comes. I mean, that is the name of the game... solving problems and being a leader. Besides, that is only a variable, you probably would have saltpeter somewhere in your empire, unless of course your a weak civilization with few cities.

[Inverse Icarus]

thats one of the major points of the game cort.

its not all about being advanced and rich, your land has much more of a strategic value. the only real strtegic value land had in civ2 was bottlenecks or mountain ranges for defence. now that island of deserts and swamps that nobody wants to colonize could yield just the resources you need.

[cort]

for the most part, i think the new resource system is cool and will add to the gameplay a lot. However, i cannot understand why designers ignored the quantity issue.
The decision; "you can produce any number of ironclads provided that you have access to a single coal" doesnot seem to be realistic.
we have to wait and see but unless the resources are found REALLY scarse, this "one is enough" thing can make things very simple, destroying the whole idea..

[Inverse Icarus]

firaxis confirmed long ago that there are at least 3 areas for each resource on every map, and i assume there will be more on larger maps.

[Yoleus]

Unpolite signature

Jingo, can you please be more polite in your signature?

[Executor]

Apolyton doesn't censor sigs?