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  • #16
    Great analogy!

    Someone mentioned chess and I believe that is a fantastic analogy here. The players I directed the term "sophisticated" toward are those who desire a game that challenges them every time they play it. They found ways to beat the AI in Civ 1 and 2, even on deity level, and so they were forced to turn to MP in order to be challenged. I could say that it's easy to fall into this rut if you continue to play the game in the same manner every time, to wit: I found a way to win on deity so I continued playing that same way every game and got bored. I also admit that human nature directs one to continue doing that which works and this same group may have been able to win even trying different methods of gameplay (i.e. warmonger, through science, etc.).

    Then you have another group that found the game fun, even if they could win at deity most of the time too, and continued to appreciate the game. Thus comes the chess analogy. I've played a fair bit of chess and even got seriously into it for a time. I read books. I bought MCO (the "bible of chess"). I went to Kasparov's site daily to see what was new in the chess world and what he had to say about it. I studied notated games from chess Masters and Grandmasters. Despite all that, I still struggled against my chess computer when it was set at higher difficulty levels. But I still enjoyed the game. If you reach a point when you feel unchallenged, the game loses appeal. Such was the case for some with Civ 2. And so they view Civ 3 as likely to bring about the same problems for them. Others play chess because they enjoy it, not in order to become a Grandmaster. So it is with civvers. I suppose in the end I'm trying to say that if you are one of those who demands a game that will challenge you every time you play, for several years and several thousands of games played, you will be frustrated. Such a game would be difficult to create, expensive to create and produce and would require the most modern PC systems. Also, only a small segment of the gaming population would purchase it and it would be therefore unmarketable.

    I hope for the sake of you guys (and dolls) who were easily frustrated with Civ 2 that you find Civ 3 to be a pleasant (no pun intended toward Mr.) surprise. But I do also wonder if anyone who spoke doom and gloom toward Civ 3 ahead of time (such as, "It will absolutely suck and I won't buy it!") will admit you were mistaken if in fact you are. I do respect the position of those who say that regardless of how good it is they won't buy it unless it has MP capabilities. They stand on principle.
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    • #17
      Re: here's what I think

      Originally posted by cassembler
      I remember playing Civ2 for the first few months and it [seemingly] had no flaws... as the years rolled by, however, they became very obvious to me .......
      I totally agree - initially the majority of people will have difficulty identifying the flaws in the AI - or finding the perfect strategy that will allow them to win on the hardest settings.....

      ...and by the time this has happened MP will have come along

      ... and why are we now so interested in scatology?!!
      tis better to be thought stupid, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

      6 years lurking, 5 minutes posting

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      • #18
        How do you know it will be good, have you played it?

        Sorry, couldn't resist. I certainly don't mind if people are enthousiastic about this game but I do mind if people can't accept it when others don't share this feeling (I'm not calling any names and I'm not saying such people posted here but they're out there)...
        Administrator of WePlayCiv -- Civ5 Info Centre | Forum | Gallery

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        • #19
          Re: Let's face it...

          Originally posted by civcop
          It appears that the more "sophisticated" players are at least suspicious of Civ 3 (if they haven't already written it off as crap)
          I consider myself to be a "sophisticated" player, but I still believe that civ3 will be the best civ ever. I see no reason why a person can't still enjoy a game even after they find a flaw. It's when they find flaws upon flaws that make the game actually unplayable, which I don't see Firaxis doing. They have worked hard (as far as I can tell) and I trust them to do their best in the time given to them.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Locutus
            How do you know it will be good, have you played it?
            How do you know it won't be good? Have you played it?

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            • #21
              for me it's like star trek (tng) - critix are futile

              i loved civ I / II and alpha centauri -and i believe that i'll love civ III as well

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Sabre2th


                How do you know it won't be good? Have you played it?
                It was meant sarcastically (hence the smiley), people give me that exact line every single time I criticize Civ3 in any way...
                Administrator of WePlayCiv -- Civ5 Info Centre | Forum | Gallery

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                • #23
                  Two very key points I've picked up here:

                  Sid's Civ games (as well most his other ones) are based on the principle that they are simple in its design but very deep in its play.

                  The other point is about Civ2. There are flaws in that game and those of us from the Civ2-Strategy forum have joined in with Ming to laugh about most of them. However, I can speak for most of us in saying that it has given us 1000+ hours of enjoyment and to this day, it is a game that we still love to replay.

                  Isn't that the bottom line?

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                  • #24
                    I do have to admire the passion that is expressed by everyone here at Apolyton for our CIV games. But at the same time, I have to say GET F#CKED to the people who are so vehemently criticizing things they haven't even seen yet.

                    "Sophisticated CIV players"? Geezuz! This game isn't rocket science! It's not the cure for cancer! I doubt any world leaders will be handing out medals for 'greatest CIV player in the world'.





                    Ahh, who am I kidding? CIV is the KEY to the UNIVERSE!! Put it in your mouth.

                    im afraid...

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Anunikoba
                      I do have to admire the passion that is expressed by everyone here at Apolyton for our CIV games. But at the same time, I have to say GET F#CKED to the people who are so vehemently criticizing things they haven't even seen yet.
                      I say the same about people who vehemently DEFEND things they haven't even seen yet.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Anunikoba
                        But at the same time, I have to say GET F#CKED to the people who are so vehemently criticizing things they haven't even seen yet.
                        See? This is exactly what I mean.
                        I respect anyone who is enthousiastic about this game and I honestly hope they have an awful lot of fun playing the game, that this game will be everything they ever hoped for (something which unfortunately isn't the case for me). I just wished people with different opinions would get at least some respect in return from people like Anunikoba...
                        Administrator of WePlayCiv -- Civ5 Info Centre | Forum | Gallery

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Steve Clark
                          The other point is about Civ2. There are flaws in that game and those of us from the Civ2-Strategy forum have joined in with Ming to laugh about most of them. However, I can speak for most of us in saying that it has given us 1000+ hours of enjoyment and to this day, it is a game that we still love to replay.
                          I think if I seriously totalled all the time spent playing Civ I, II, and CtpII, it would be about 3 months. 2000+ hours of Civ
                          "Chegitz, still angry about the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991?
                          You provide no source. You PROVIDE NOTHING! And yet you want to destroy capitalism.. you criminal..." - Fez

                          "I was hoping for a Communist utopia that would last forever." - Imran Siddiqui

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Locutus

                            that this game will be everything they ever hoped for (something which unfortunately isn't the case for me
                            Just because you didn't get everything you wanted doesn't mean you can't still enjoy it. If you don't like the game, great, but don't complain that you didn't get your civ3. Civ3 will be a damn good game (I think), but Firaxis can't please everyone.

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                            • #29
                              Am I complaining that I'm not getting my Civ3? My most important complaint is that it's too conservative. Even Firaxis calls it a 'conservative sequel' while I want a real sequel! It's not that I don't like culture or refuse to play a Civgame without a PW-like concept, it's that it's Civ2.5 rather than Civ3. The whole concept and approach Firaxis took are IMHO wrong, that's why I don't expect to enjoy Civ3 for very long. Combine that with developments like no MP, no scripting language and stuff and I think there is at least some grounds for complaint.

                              And no, I'm not gonna rehash the whole debate about whether it's Civ2.5 or not or whether or not MP is really that important. Fact is, I think it is and I don't like the game for it. Many others either disagree or don't mind and they have every right to do so. Does that make it illiegal for me to complain about this? It's not like I'm continuingly whining and bashing and not contributing anything useful to the community...
                              Administrator of WePlayCiv -- Civ5 Info Centre | Forum | Gallery

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                              • #30
                                I think there is at least some grounds for complaint.
                                The man has a point. Though I do not share his complaints, they are valid.
                                "You don't have to be modest if you know you're right."- L. Rigdon

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