Wishlist: which Wonders should be included?

[Fresno]

Re: Make it

Originally posted by Oligarf
What about Legalized Suicide?

Great, we should show those Americans our moral superiority!

[Oligarf]

Don't shoot on those Americans

Cause they actually are sweet little rabbits.

[Oligarf]

I meant: 'Don't fly on those Americans' of course

[Boris Godunov]

Re: Don't shoot on those Americans

Originally posted by Oligarf
Cause they actually are sweet little rabbits.

Hey!

Looks like I'm the only American posting in this thread at the moment, hehehe.

So I will warn you: don't forget we Americans are armed to the teeth! We shoot back. Not that we always hit, mind you, but if we fire enough bullets, we're bound to hit something.

Anyhoo...

[Locutus]

Well, back to the topic...

I think the Wonder lists in all Civ games so far have been way too western-centric, there've been way too little Asian, African, Oceanian and Native American wonders. Below is a list of wonders I once made for a CtP mod that I never finished, I tried to include as many different nations as possible (that's why there's only 1 Greek wonder FE; only 'civs' like the Chinese and Indians have more, simply because they were never really a single civ). Because I can't imagine anyone knows all the wonders on this list, I also collected some info on them here. I ripped it all from various websites without editing it in any way so it's a little unpolished to say the least but it should give some sort of impression on what all these wonders are. Once again, I never finished the mod or even the list of wonders so I'm not saying this could be used straight away for Civ3 or any other game but it does contain some ideas that I for one have never seen anyone else mention before while IMHO they are all at least worth considering.

Civ		Name				Date		Location	Type
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lost Civ	Sunken City of Yonaguna		An 10500 BC(?)	Asia		Naval(?)
Egyptian	Pyramid of Cheops/Kufur		An 2550 BC	Africa		Production
Celtic		Stonehenge			An 2000 BC	Europe		Food
Nubian		Defuffa of Kerma		An 1700 BC	Africa		Happiness
Minoan		Labyrinth of the Minotaur	An 1700 BC	Europe		Trade
Hebrew		Temple of Solomon		An 1000-900 BC	Asia		Happ./Crime/Dipl.
Phoenician	Harbors of Carthage		An 814 BC	Africa		Naval
Babylonian	Hanging Gardens			An 810-783 BC	Asia		Happiness
Greek		Temple of Artemis		Cl 550 BC	Europe		Happ./Dipl./Trade
Persian		Palace of Persepolis		Cl 518 BC	Asia		Government
Roman		Via Appia			Cl 312 BC	Europe		Trade/Government
Qin Chinese	Great Wall			Cl 221 BC	Asia		Military
Philippinian	Banaue Rice Terraces		Cl +/- 0 AD	Oceania		Food
Mesoamerican	Teotihuacan			Cl 200 AD	America		Happiness
Tiahuanacu	Tiahuanacu			Cl 200 AD	America		Food
Byzanthine	Hagia Sophia			Cl 360 AD	Asia		Happiness
Christian	The Vatican			Me 400-500 AD	Europe		Happiness
Mayan		Chicken Itza			Me 500-600 AD	America		Crime
Micronesian	Nan Madol of Pohnpei		Me 500-1500 AD	Oceania		Government?
Sui Chinese	Great Canal			Me 607 AD	Asia		Trade/Food
Arab		Dome of the Rock		Me 687 AD	Asia		Happiness
Burmese		Shwe Dagon			Me 700 AD	Asia		Happiness
Indonesian	Borobudur			Me 800 AD	Oceania		Happiness
Morish		Great Mosque of Kairouan	Me 8?? AD	Africa		Happiness
English		Tower of London			Me 1066 AD	Europe		Military
Venetian	San Marco Basilica		Me 1071 AD	Europe		Happiness
Khmer		Angkor Wat			Me 1113-1150 AD	Asia		Happiness/Prod.
Russian		Kremlin				Me 1156 AD	Europe		Government
Bantu		Great Zimbabwe			Me +/- 1300 AD	Africa		Defense/Gov./Trade
Aztec		Tenochtitlán			Me 1325 AD	America		Food
Mongol/Timurid	Registan of Samarkand		Me 1370 AD	Asia		Science
Mali		Sankore Mosque of Timbuktu	Me 1400 AD	Africa		Science
Ming Chinese	Forbidden City			Re 1407 AD	Asia		Diplomacy
Polynesian	Easter Island			Re 1400-1600 AD	Oceania		Happiness
Incan		Machu Piccu			Re 1450-1550 AD	America		Happiness/Gov.
Turkish		Topkapi Palace			Re 1453 AD	Asia		Commerce/Trade
South Indian	Meenakshi Temple of Madurai	Re 1565-1781 AD	Asia		Happiness
Moghul Indian	Taj Mahal			Re 1632 AD	Asia		Happ/Dipl/Gov
French		Palais de Versailles		Re 1661 AD	Europe		Government
Benin		Palaces of Abomey		Re 1695 AD	Africa		Government
Japanese	Torii of Itsukushima		Re 1875 AD	Asia		Happiness
Spanish		Sagrada Familia			Mo 1882 AD	Europe		Happiness
Panamese	Panama Canal			Mo 1904 AD	America		Trade
Brazilian	Statue of Cristo Redentor	Mo 1931 AD	America		Happiness
American	Empire State Building		Mo 1931 AD	America		Trade/Commerce
Dutch		Delta Works			Mo 1953 AD	Europe		Food/Happiness
American	NORAD				Mo 1963 AD	America		Military
Australian	Opera House			Mo 1966 AD	Oceania		Happiness
Anglo-French	Channel Tunnel			Mo 1987 AD	International	Trade
Malaysian	Petronas Towers			Mo 1993 AD	Oceania		Trade/Commerce
International	Intern. Space Station Alpha	Mo 1998 AD	International	Science

[Boris Godunov]

Just so you know...

Mayan Chicken Itza

It's Chichen Itza, not Chicken!



Or as I used to call it, Chicken Pizza.

[Takeshi]

As for that "modern japanese" wonder that was raised a few posts ago, how about Kansai's floating airport? Ok, so it isn't really floating but as far as I know it's sitting on the biggest man-made island in the world and survived the Kobe quake, which is certainly no mean feat.

http://tlc.discovery.com/tlcpages/superstructures/superstructures_kansai.html

[Locutus]

Oops, sorry Boris, that's what I meant of course. I always jokingly call it Chicken Itza (though I'll change that to Chicken Pizza right this instant, hadn't even thought of that! ) but I suppose I got a little too used to it

Takeshi,
I agree that that's a very suitable Japanese wonder as well. In fact, I originally wanted that as my Japanese wonder for that mod but I didn't have enough Renaissance/Industrial Age wonders so I went for for Torii after all (that famous castle, can't remember the name right now, was #3 on my list).

[Triped]

I think you should be allowed to build a worldwide fast food network. That way nobody can complain

[Fresno]

Originally posted by Locutus
I think the Wonder lists in all Civ games so far have been way too western-centric, there've been way too little Asian, African, Oceanian and Native American wonders. Below is a list of wonders I once made for a CtP mod that I never finished, I tried to include as many different nations as possible (that's why there's only 1 Greek wonder FE; only 'civs' like the Chinese and Indians have more, simply because they were never really a single civ). Because I can't imagine anyone knows all the wonders on this list, I also collected some info on them

Wow, what a list. To be honest, there are even a few I didn't knew (yes, only a few - why do you think my avatar is a
professor?). You've included nearly all the Wonders I asked for in this thread. I agree, there are too many western Wonders in the game, but that's because there are only a few non-European civs included. What happened with the Arabs, the Khmer, the Fenicians, the Incas, the Ottomans and many others?

[Boris Godunov]

It's because...

Civilization is a very Western/Eurocentric game. We Americans/Europeans are brought up on history that stresses the dominance of European Culture. The very concept we possess of "civilization" is a uniquely European one (I include America as a European culture, considering its roots). Ancient Asian and African cultures didn't even meet the high standards of what Europeans were considering "civilized" until recent scholars began to re-examine their cultures.

In the end, Civ3 will be a mainly European game. The designers can't help it...it's ingrained in all our backgrounds and upbringings. We've been taught since the beginning of our youthful educations that Columbus was such a great guy and we in America still celebrate a day for him. Who cares if he was a brutal conqueror who enslaved and murdered West Indians and never accepted the fact he'd failed to reach the East Indies (which he died claiming he had)? We were told Americas Founding Fathers were these noble patriots, so who cares if in reality many of them were no better than the terrorists we are fighting against today?

History is written by the winners. Europe can claim to have won out over the past 3 centuries or so. It's only now starting to shift to more global view of history.

Cheers.

[Fresno]

Re: It's because...

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
So I will warn you: don't forget we Americans are armed to the teeth! We shoot back. Not that we always hit, mind you, but if we fire enough bullets, we're bound to hit something.

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Civilization is a very Western/Eurocentric game. We Americans/Europeans are brought up on history that stresses the dominance of European Culture. The very concept we possess of "civilization" is a uniquely European one (I include America as a European culture, considering its roots).

Conclusion: you were threatening your fellow-Europeans... What a shame!

Serious now:
You are right, the most advanced civilization is currently the Western one. But you can't exclude so many Asian and African civs and Wonders as in Civ2. The civilizations I mentioned just deserve to be included. Civ is about history. For example: for centuries the Muslim world was far more advanced as the Western one. But there isn't a single Muslim tribe in Civ2!

[Boris Godunov]

Re: Re: It's because...

Originally posted by Fresno


Conclusion: you were threatening your fellow-Europeans... What a shame!

Serious now:
You are right, the most advanced civilization is currently the Western one. But you can't exclude so many Asian and African civs and Wonders as in Civ2. The civilizations I mentioned just deserve to be included. Civ is about history. For example: for centuries the Muslim world was far more advanced as the Western one. But there isn't a single Muslim tribe in Civ2!

Hehehe, I am a masochist, I suppose...

I 100%, categorically agree with you. I was just pointing out why it is the case that we all tend to have a European bias in all things historical. It doesn't make the bias right at all! I think, as the world gets smaller, that bias will become less and we will begin to see a more global concept of history.

I do think that they should have included a Muslim/Arab/Ottoman civ as one of the main civs, with Sulayman as the leader. The Caliphate was, after all, one of the greatest empires ever, and certainly dominated at one time. Its omission seems rather incomprehensible. I would rather see them as opposed to the Persians or the Iroquois. Certainly their impact on the world has been far greater.

Cheers

[Fresno]

Absolutely

[Locutus]

Well, I think that the designers should include many non-Western civs/wonders/etc especially because of all the bias. They should do (cq have done) what they did with Civ1 and Civ2: not only entertain but also educate. I mean, I bet 50% of the Civ2 audience had never heard of the Carthaginians before and had never considered the Persians as a major civilization, to name just 2 examples. I think they should have continued this line in Civ3 and take it a step further: include at least one Muslim (Arab, Turkish), South East Asian (Thai, Khmer) and sub-Saharan (Mali, Ghana, Zimbabwe but not the tiny and insignificant Zulu) civ and a bunch of non-Western wonders from my above list (or other non-Westerns wonders, there are plenty more).