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**TechWins** · September 17, 2001, 15:54

Well, I couldn't agree more with you on the MAD subject, but if MAD hasn't been included already there's no chance for it being included. I've targeted many of my "ask the civ team" questions towards MAD and obviously have not seen any results from it.

I'm not too sure about your other two, though.

A point that I would like to stress is that air combat needs to have a lot more importance added to it. Hopefully, the "mission" style of movement has done this.

**saracen31** · September 17, 2001, 16:01

Originally posted by TechWins
A point that I would like to stress is that airfare needs to have a lot more importance.

Airfare or air warfare?

**korn469** · September 17, 2001, 16:14

TechWins

i too have sent a number of questions about nuclear weapons and M.A.D. to firaxis, and if it isn't in now it won't make it during release (i can always hope it will make the expansion)

if you have ever played SMAC, there is a building in the game called a punishment sphere, which makes all of the people in your city happy, but it decreases that cities research by half

by using supply crawlers and by making all of the population of that city entertainers, you can home all of your air force or invading force to that city, thereby exempting you from the unhappiness penalty of being at war (under democracy in civ2, free market in SMAC) this is called army laundering and it ruins the enjoyment of the game...the same thing could be done in civ2 if you built shakespeare's theater

however in civ3 since military units cost gold instead of shields, this will be a very simple thing to do, and it's widespread use could destroy the game (because civ3 only has five governments, and they must be well balanced for the game to work)

also anytime a player doesn't want to deal with unhappiness all they have to do is turn everyone into entertainers, and this ruins the game, people should have to deal with unhappiness at some points

__________________________________________________ _

with the 30% reduction in food cost instead of 50% reduction in food cost then that ensures a flat settler production time, which prevents ICS, without it ICS will again ruin the game

**TechWins** · September 17, 2001, 16:23

Airfare or air warfare?

You know when I typed that I thought it sounded a little odd in that context. I'll go fix it after this post.

if you have ever played SMAC

Yes, I have played SMAC and I don't really remember much about it. I only played the game once and never played it again (I don't like the sci-fi part of the game).

I wasn't very clear here, "I'm not too sure about your other two, though". What I meant is I'm not sure if Firaxis has done anything with that and if they even will/would have.

**korn469** · September 17, 2001, 16:33

TechWins

What I meant is I'm not sure if Firaxis has done anything with that and if they even will/would have.

i am assuming that they have not implemented these changes yet, and as of now have no intention of implementing them, i also assume that they haven't ever tried to implement them, and probably haven't even though of them

when people wanted a peaceful trigger to Golden Ages they responded, and i am hoping they will respond to this as well

**TechWins** · September 17, 2001, 17:04

Yeah you are right Korn.

Only the very small changes will be listened to now and those two are very small changes, but only Firaxis knows if they will make those changes.

**korn469** · September 17, 2001, 17:09

TechWins

i truly believe that those small changes which might take a couple of hours to do at most (a few minutes to do at least) would change the game to a significant degree in a very positive manner, ending vast exploitation of the game in the form of army laundering and ICS, plus it would make the game harder on diety

if only they see them i think they will consider them

**Sabre2th** · September 17, 2001, 17:13

Re: I cannot stress how important these changes are

These are a few small last minute changes that are vital in my opinion to Civ3

IMO, if you don't like it, don't buy/play it. Either it's in or it's not. This thread won't be changing much of anything.

1. All cities always need at least one worker.

It's anti-ICS, anti-army laundering, anti-cheese! It's simple elegent, and easy to understand. It floats like a butterfly and stings like a bee, it's like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow! It's less cheating! Works Great! Civ3 needs this!

uhhh...... Shouldn't be necessary, given the new limitations. This would take away from gameplay IMO. One less choice I get to make.

2. Granaries should at most reduce the food requirements by 30%. (even 1/3 could be too much)

This has already been discussed. Either it's in or it's not.

Granaries will bring back ICS if granaries work like they do in civ2

Probably not.

3. Add the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction (M.A.D.) to civ3.

Again, too late. The choice has already been made.

support this thread people! let firaxis know you want these changes!

It's too late for the changes that really matter. If you don't like the little things, either don't play or fix them yourself.

**TechWins** · September 17, 2001, 17:24

IMO, if you don't like it, don't buy/play it. Either it's in or it's not. This thread won't be changing much of anything.

It's not really that Korn won't buy the game; I think he just wants these changes to be made very badly.

**korn469** · September 17, 2001, 17:32

MO, if you don't like it, don't buy/play it. Either it's in or it's not. This thread won't be changing much of anything.

the same could have been said about a peaceful trigger for golden ages, so your statement is untrue about not changing anything...also this is from the lastest ask the civ3 team

A cultural victory can occur if one of your cities amasses 20,000 culture points, or if your entire empire amasses at least 80,000 culture points and no rival civ has more than half of your cultural value. (These values may fluctuate as we test them out, but you get the general idea.)

so they are still certainly working on the game, and like i said it is a small change so it would be in the realm of possibility for firaxis to do this

Shouldn't be necessary, given the new limitations. This would take away from gameplay IMO. One less choice I get to make.

well if you consider army laundering a choice and not a horrible game exploit then you are losing a choice, but to me it is fixing an exploit in the game's rules

Probably not

look at the ICS thread, it certainly looks like ICS will be back if granaries work like they did in civ2

Again, too late. The choice has already been made.

for all we know M.A.D. is in Civ3, there has only been one quote about the subject, and that was from the gamespot uk preview and jeff Briggs said that once more than one civ got nukes they wouldn't be of much value, so to me that implies M.A.D.

It's too late for the changes that really matter. If you don't like the little things, either don't play or fix them yourself.

there is still at least a month till civ3 goes gold, more than enough time to implement these changes, and unless the scenario editor is truly robust i wouldn't be able to fix these things

one last thing

if you don't like it, don't buy/play it.

without a demo how would one know if these things are in the game? no preview is going to discuss this, and many stores won't let you return it once you have opened it

i'm trying to point out to the team at firaxis problems that may arise in civ3, and things arent as black and white as you make them out to be, i'm not complaining i'm trying to give constructive feedback to the team, which is what we should all try to do

**Sabre2th** · September 17, 2001, 17:50

Originally posted by TechWins

It's not really that Korn won't buy the game; I think he just wants these changes to be made very badly.

I know that, but it's just not practical to ask for MAD at this point, unless it's already in. The game is done, for the most part.

so they are still certainly working on the game, and like i said it is a small change so it would be in the realm of possibility for firaxis to do this

I didn't say they weren't making changes, I'm saying that you shouldn't get your hopes up.

well if you consider army laundering a choice and not a horrible game exploit then you are losing a choice, but to me it is fixing an exploit in the game's rules

I shouldn't be required to build/support a worker if I don't want to. If I choose not to develop my land, I shouldn't have to pay for the worker. (I'm not saying this is my strategy, I'm saying that I don't like the idea)

look at the ICS thread, it certainly looks like ICS will be back if granaries work like they did in civ2

This is speculuation. The bottom line is that we just don't know.

there is still at least a month till civ3 goes gold, more than enough time to implement these changes, and unless the scenario editor is truly robust i wouldn't be able to fix these things

I didn't say there wasn't time for changes, I said, again, that you shouldn't get your hopes up. And yes, it is most likely too late for MAD.

without a demo how would one know if these things are in the game? no preview is going to discuss this, and many stores won't let you return it once you have opened it

That's where Apolyton comes in. If these things are that important to you, wait until people start discussing things here before you buy it.

**korn469** · September 17, 2001, 18:00

I know that, but it's just not practical to ask for MAD at this point, unless it's already in. The game is done, for the most part.

i asked for M.A.D. years ago, and i have continued to ask for it since then...does that count?

I'm saying that you shouldn't get your hopes up.

i hope for the best expect the worst

1. All cities always need at least one worker.

I shouldn't be required to build/support a worker if I don't want to. If I choose not to develop my land, I shouldn't have to pay for the worker.

you have completely misunderstood me Sabre2th

and i will edit my original post

what I mean is this

1. All cities always need at least one population point per city who cannot be made into a specialist.

**Skanky Burns** · September 17, 2001, 18:25

Re: I cannot stress how important these changes are

I agree with you, Korn, having read your analysis in the ICS thread on what settlers will cost in Civ 3. The food production must be kept slower than the "shield" production so that an ICSer and a Perfectionist, and those in-between wont differ greatly in initial expansion.

About MAD: I think this is in, as there are 2 different nukes available, where the 'big' one takes 2 turns to hit, but can hit anywhere on the map. These leave radiation around the city too. However, its all still speculation.

Changing the value of the granary bonus and ensuring that each city has at least 1 productive pop unit are very small changes in programming terms, but large changes in game-play terms. There shouldn't be any reason Firaxis couldn't implement these things quite easily. I think we will probably be able to edit the granary's effects on the city, if they dont do it for us. Hopefully the pop-check will also be done for us.

I didn't say they weren't making changes, I'm saying that you shouldn't get your hopes up.

Try to post constructive criticism. Speculating about how Civ 3 might work is why we are here, and we shouldn't restrict ourselves to talking only about confirmed features because Firaxis *might* not implement them...

you have completely misunderstood me Sabre2th and i will edit my original post

When i first read this thread, i decided to comment on the 'every city needs a worker' part of your post, but then once i was replying, it was completely different!! I thought i was going crazy!!

**Warm Beer** · September 17, 2001, 18:43

Originally posted by korn469

1. All cities always need at least one population point per city who cannot be made into a specialist.

/Zen Mode
Is one an entertainer if there is no one to entertain?
/Zen Mode

Yeah, that's a great idea actually. It makes absolutely no sense (in realism terms) to have a city were no one is doing anything productive. Geez, somobody has to clean the toilets!

M.A.D. is an excellent idea, even if it is in the spectulative way of the 2 turn nuke, giving you a chance to retaliate and (uh oh) move all your armies out of the way... Unless you just get the message, "Gandhi just launched a nuke at us Great Leader! We must retaliate, but there is no indication of where it is gonna land.

More speculation, however.

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I cannot stress how important these changes are

I cannot stress how important these changes are

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