Downgraded Leonardos Workshop (if still in)

[Ralf]

The Leonardos Workshop wonder was waaaay to powerful in Civ-2. It unbalanced the game. It was easily much more worthwhile then the Eiffeltower + Darwins Voyage + Statue of Liberty put together. Hell, even if they added Cure for Cancer also, and if I was forced to choose between these four wonder OR Leonardos Workshop, I think would have chosen the latter anyway. I dont know if its still in. If it is, it must be downgraded. I suggest:

- LW is now a small Wonder, available for those who have earned enough veteran combat-points.
- You must pay an upgrade-fee for each unit - still favourable compared with building from scratch.
- You can only upgrade units fortified in your cities. You must bring them in.
- Any achieved veteran/elite combat-status falls down one step, in the process.

Such a "downgraded" small Leonardos Workshop Wonder, would still be a very attractive to have, the way I see it. Finally, (I almost forgot) you cannot upgrade any unit-type to any different updated unit-type, of course.

- Bombers only to advanced bombers
- Early wooden warships only to advanced wooden warships
- Infantry defence-units only to more advanced infantry defence-units
- Early tanks only to modern tanks, and so on.

[Ilkuul]

No, no, leave Leonardo's exactly the way it is -- I love it! (But I agree that's probably BECAUSE it's too powerful!)

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Ilkuul
No, no, leave Leonardo's exactly the way it is -- I love it! (But I agree that's probably BECAUSE it's too powerful!)

But 9 times out of 10, the veteran-player got it - and this wonder was exclusive. AI-civs couldnt catch up easily. How fun is it to kick on already laying men? Dont you guys want a more challenging game?

[dainbramaged13]

yah but i still cant beat occ on deity so..

[TCO]

Re: Downgraded Leonardos Workshop (if still in)

Originally posted by Ralf
The Leonardos Workshop wonder was waaaay to powerful in Civ-2. It unbalanced the game. It was easily much more worthwhile then the Eiffeltower + Darwins Voyage + Statue of Liberty put together. Hell, even if they added Cure for Cancer also, and if I was forced to choose between these four wonder OR Leonardos Workshop, I think would have chosen the latter anyway. I dont know if its still in. If it is, it must be downgraded. I suggest:

I agree with you with one exception!!

In diety, Statue is extremely valauable if you play the Statue --> fundy method.

Nothing like being in Fundy early, stacking up the bucks and kicking major ass!! I

[TCO]

Originally posted by dainbramaged13
yah but i still cant beat occ on deity so..

WIMP!! Drop and give me 20!!

[TCO]

Originally posted by Ilkuul
No, no, leave Leonardo's exactly the way it is -- I love it! (But I agree that's probably BECAUSE it's too powerful!)

Don't be so wimpy.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Ilkuul
No, no, leave Leonardo's exactly the way it is -- I love it!

I agree.

[Inverse Icarus]

ahhh... in one turn all my warriors/phalanxes/legions/archers/pikemen turn into musketeers.

[saracen31]

Always gotta get that Leo on Deity level - instant warriors to musketeers. Then immediately to riflemen, and all horsemen to dragoons.

Agreed, it's WAY too powerful. I love it, but it really does skew the game way too much. I like Ralf's ideas: bring the units back to town & pay a SMALL upgrade fee - maybe 1/4 or 1/2 the cost of building a unit from scratch.

[korn469]

Leo SHOULD NOT be in civ3 if it opperates as it does in civ2! remember in addition to shields you now have to consider special resources too

but i liked Ralf's idea about the LW as a small wonder, it didn't sound unbalanced, in fact it sounds like a nice little addition

[isaac brock]

Most of the wonders weren't as powerful as i wanted in civ 2, and in civ 3 they'll be even weaker. that blows serious hamster ass. in SMAC, however, almost all the projects were powerful enough to give you a serious edge. I might let them have the merchant exchange, or something crappy like that (taking that city later, of course) but if you were the university, you could often build the projects before the others even research them, and it would give you a faction-crushing edge over them. After civ 3, i can't wait for SMAC 2

[saracen31]

originally posted by isaac brock
Most of the wonders weren't as powerful as i wanted in civ 2, and in civ 3 they'll be even weaker. that blows serious hamster ass.

To me, some of Civ II's wonders were totally unbalancing - Leo's leads the list, but Adam Smith was a bit much as was the Great Wall early in the game.

Then there were others that were weak: Shakespeare's Theater comes to mind on this list, the Lighthouse expires too quickly.

And then the totally stupid ones: if I build the Apollo Program or Manhattan Project, why should the whole world benefit?

I don't mind if Civ III's wonders are weaker: I just don't want any that are mindless or totally unbalance the game.

I do have every confidence that they're playtesting the hell out of the game, so hopefully they'll get it right.

[TechWins]

Well, it's getting really late for me (5:30am wake up & it's 11:30pm right now), so I wasn't able to read every post, sorry. I want to make this point clear, though, before I go to bed.

It's going to be rather difficult having units upgraded with the resource requirements for units.

Also sorry about the lack of elaboration on that thought.

[Harlan]

I think its a good bet that Leonardo's will be a Small Wonder, meaning each civ can have one. In a similar vein, note how Sun Tzu's Academy is now the generic Military Academy Small Wonder.

I agree that its good if units could only upgrade if of the same type. In other words, you couldn't have a Trireme and keep upgrading it to a Battleship. At some point it reaches the end of the wooden ship line and should stop there.