Should Firaxis alter the Pentagon and WTC wonders?

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Leonidas
Keep them in as a sign of respect.

And when you build them - remember. . .

Yes keep them in and as Leonidas said REMEMBER.

[star mouse]

When I created the thread, I was concerned about the possibility of such things as post-traumatic stress disorder having a severe impact on those people unfortunate enough to have been subjected to severe trauma during these atrocities. It is now clear that the more appropriate course of action would be to leave them in so we can remember. The Colossus was destroyed, but that is in the game. (bigfree1's analogy is incorrect.)

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Eradicating Palestinians?

So you want to make the eradication of the Palestinians a wonder UberKrux? Well why not go one step further and make "The Holocaust" (aka "Hitlers Final Solution to the Jewish Problem") a Wonder as well . Its this kind of racist, dehumanizing crap that caused so many Germans and Italians to turn a blind eye to Nazi Atrocities during WWII. I thought that, after 6 million lives lost, we'd have learned to be more tolerant of others. Clearly I was mistaken and I just hope that, when the death squads finally come for you UberKrux, that theres still someone left to stand up for you!!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

[Kurgan]

I do not think that Uberkrux meant to kill all people that call themselves Palestinians. But when I saw the Palestinians celebrating the attacks, one could only think that at least the mentality that makes people do that should be eradicated, as nazism was almost totally wiped out (not yet), what is a nonsense is to try to talk with people that think that God is showing them the truth, and the truth is to kill US citizens (or westerners, there has been attacks also in France and other countries). I think the wonders should be kept, and Palestinian mentality killed, there could be only one democratic mentality where everybody have their rights, and nobody imposes their views or Gods by force.

[Saint Marcus]

I guess the next thing modmakers will create is a CU called "suicide airliner".

[Robert]

No, how cruel it is, these wonders yesterday received their place in history forever and will never be forgotten.

One week ago WTC and pentagon were pherhaps the least important wonders in the game. (emotional)
Today we all know that to the american civilization there's no emotional more valuable 'wonder' than the Twin Towers.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Kurgan
I do not think that Uberkrux meant to kill all people that call themselves Palestinians. But when I saw the Palestinians celebrating the attacks, one could only think that at least the mentality that makes people do that should be eradicated, as nazism was almost totally wiped out (not yet), what is a nonsense is to try to talk with people that think that God is showing them the truth, and the truth is to kill US citizens (or westerners, there has been attacks also in France and other countries). I think the wonders should be kept, and Palestinian mentality killed, there could be only one democratic mentality where everybody have their rights, and nobody imposes their views or Gods by force.

Americans also think God is showing them the truth when they invade, pillage and kill. I will not waste my words here on the despicable idiotic act that happened yesterday, but Americans also cheer their pilots when they deliver bombs from 10,000 meters (unlike 'cowardly' terrorists who die like kamikaze). It just shows that it is HUMAN and not ARAB mentality to enjoy the misery of others. That is why the world is such a ****ed up place...

[Kurgan]

I do not mean Arab mentality, but Islamic, and I agree with you about the Americans that think that God is telling them what to do or that God is with them when they bomb. But what I meant is that even if you think that to attack and kill people is necessary ( it does not matter if you are a US military or a Islamic terrorist), human beings do not cheer and celebrate the massacre, unless you are a Nazi and you belive in superiority of races, or you are Muslim and been told since you are a child that is good to kill US citizens regardless if they are civilians or military (and that is taken from a public declaration of Osama Bin Laden). Palestinians cheered the killing yesterday, and the happiness of death is what I find horrible. Another point is that I do not consider to be at the same level people (it does not matter if they are Christians or Muslims) that think the God's law is over human rights and democratic rule, and in the Muslim world there are more people that do not respect democratic institutions (they do not even have any they could disrespect, and in the US they got "some") and think that this massacre was good (just watch them rejoicing)

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Kurgan
human beings do not cheer and celebrate the massacre,

unfortunately, i think you overestimate human beings a lot....

[star mouse]

Originally posted by UberKruX
although i now think the eradication of palestians should be a world wonder.

A better world wonder would be the achievement of world peace, with people living together with each other despite their differences.

[paulmagusnet]

Absolutely, keep these wonders. All things are transient. It is the idea that they represent that is of value. Also, there is a tradition of destroying such artifacts, just ask the Taliban about what should be done with 1500 year old Buddist statues. In fact, in their minds, the pentagon and the WTC are equally heritical and dispicable as those Buddist temples.

In game terms, the emotionalism should be put aside (along with calling others idiots for their opinions, we can do without that kind of intolerance and thoughtless rudeness) and we really sould model the effects of this kind of act of war. And it is an act of war as surely as Pearl Harbor. War includes a certain amount of opportunistic terrorism, just ask the residents of Dresden. It is only since the enligtnement that we have tried to 'civilize' war and direct it away from killing civilians. But in this century the act of killing civilians has again become the object of war, however it is fought.

Therefore, while there are benefits to building a wonder, there can be serious consequences to having it destroyed also.

As to the cheering Palistinians, well, it simply says we can no longer try to be a neutral peace maker in the milddle east, but must choose sides. Otherwise we will reward the actors and invite more such attacks, and not just from this group. And, since they burned our important symbol, and essentually said that this kind of thing is fine to do, we should show them that the 'Dome of the Rock' burns quite nicely to, and mail the pieces to Kabul just to make the point.

Islam is not the enemy, but a toxic branch of Islam is. I have many Islamic friends who dispise what has happened. But like the Thuggies of Hindi, this particular brance of Islam must be exterminated or at least have it's fangs pulled, and quicky. Certainly the Cristians and the Jews have their fanatics, but at least they only try to steal your money, these days.

Religious fanaticism is an appropriate thing to model in the game as it allows you to explore and understand those motivations and see that there is a reason to resort to these actions, if god tells you it is good to do.

As far as the Jews and Palistinians (who are not all islamic, but also cristian), they both want mutually exclusive conditions. While I sympathies with the fate of the Palistinians, they dug their own grave and I now fully support Israel. Simply becaue They Don't blow up my buildings, wonders and airplanes.


By the way, Hitler killed 20 million, try not to forget those other 14 million dead people. Or the 40 million killed by Stalin, the 20 million killed by Mao, the 2 million killed by Pol Pot. etc.

The world is not a nice place, accept it, and just do your best to be better.

[aaglo]

Originally posted by UberKruX
...although i now think the eradication of palestians should be a world wonder.

Perhaps you should review your statements. The quotation above shows that sense of good taste is missing... I hope you can find it. This mayhem is unbelievable, but please: don't jump into hasty conclusions... It wouldn't make things better

[campmajor!]

Unfortunately Larusso is right: Human beings are not that good...

Hate wins over peace too many times....

[paulmagusnet]

Civers

Do we have a 'realistic civers' club?, How do I join.

One thing CIV, or CTP don't do very well is model Religion. Well, at least CTP tries, with it's cristrian evalgilist. But there is more than one religion in the world and monotheisim is not necessarily an advance.

IT would be nice to see my Animist/VooDoo Chinese win the world using Real commie zombies.

In game terms, turning someone's high tech gaget against them, as in a suicide transport plane, is not inappropriate, since, it obviously can happen and had the effect of dropping a small tac-nuke. (See those distance shots of Manhatten).

Some people will find those ideas objectionable, but reality is, well, what it is.

It will be interesting to see if this tactical success will be allowed to become a strategic success or, as Pear Harbor led to the Japanese demise, if it will awake a sleeping giant.

A victory condition, if you had multiple religions, could be to make your belief the dominant religion of the world. Through conquest, persuasion, brain washing or bingo.

Could I make a personal Request for everyone to be tolarant and NOT call each other names or idiots. It is not constructive to to progressive discourse.

[XarXo]

Re: Should Firaxis alter the Pentagon and WTC wonders?

Originally posted by star mouse
There have been terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, two buildings which are wonders in CIV3. Should these wonders be altered into more neutral images as a mark of respect for those who have died? Seeing images of the World Trade Centre and Pentagon in the game may be very distressing to those who have lost loved ones in these buildings.

Pentagon must remain, but the two towers of the WTC must be changed by the Petrona Towers in Kuala Lumpur. The new building in WTC towers surely don't be the same as the old one (cause the old one was ugly and, as everybody could see, insecure). So, Petrona Towers, you're welcome!!

Bye the way, I want express my support to all the affected people by the terrorist attack , was an horrible vision that just hapened the same day as La Diada de Catalunya, the "celebration" of the end of catalan resistance in front of spanish attack at 1714, we lose all our freedoms, our governmet, opressed our language, our culture... But NOW (well, a 90% of it) has returned!!! HOPE PEOPLE!!! The new WTC will be TRULY a giant skyscraper that will give us hope again