Now, if YOU were the Firaxis PR person...

[korn469]

concerns that we can do very little about. in fact they only thing we can do is ask for explanations....
and that doesnt validate lots of shouting and hysteria

well while we might be able to do very little, i don't think that we have been shouting, instead we have just been stating our take on things, and as far as i know the only member who logged on from firaxis was Mike and i doubt he read all of the threads, probably just skimmed over a couple

without a little bit of debate this forum wouldn't be very popular, and I don't think that the majority of us on either side have made personal attacks, or said things that were uncalled for...i think the debate over MP, and if it is the final sign that civ3 is being rushed out the door is a fierce but friendly debate

you do a good job markos and you have a great site

[yin26]

Markos does an oustanding job and has an outstanding site. One hallmark of that, for example, is the moment ANYTHING goes wrong with the site, he and Dan are posting solid explanations. I might I remind us...this site is free to us.

And yet, in the face of a company that plans to charge quite a bit of money for its product, Markos doesn't demand the same level of service that he gives to his 'customers' for free!

Markos: If Firaxis ran its PR like you maintain Poly, I bet my major organs they'd sell a heck of a whole lot more games.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by yin26
Markos: Do you or do you not do everything in your power to make the developer look good? C'mon. This is not an attack on you. Be honest with yourself.

when you're making such baseless statements against me yin, you ARE attacking me, whether you want it or not.

You say you don't care about PR: Then why have a website?

i didnt say i didnt care about having good PR. i said i would judge firaxis by it's games, not it's PR

[MarkG]

Originally posted by korn469
well while we might be able to do very little, i don't think that we have been shouting, instead we have just been stating our take on things, and as far as i know the only member who logged on from firaxis was Mike and i doubt he read all of the threads, probably just skimmed over a couple

whe i talk about shouting and hysteria, i'm not referring to reasonable debate or people making posts with actual arguments like you korn

[yin26]

We cross-posted. Read above.

Baseless? Markos: Ask around what people think of your relationship with developers. You are FAMOUS for looking the other way and shining only a good light. Again, that might actually be to our benefit since you and Dan own this site. Face it...you are FAMOUS for it.

As for judging by the game and not the PR: Of course! But what do you think we have during the two years of waiting? We have PR, Markos. PR. And I promise you, many many people will judge whether or not to buy this game based on people's word of mouth even before the release. And that is based on what?

PR

[MarkG]

Originally posted by yin26
And yet, in the face of a company that plans to charge quite a bit of money for its product, Markos doesn't demand the same level of service that he gives to his 'customers' for free!

the service of that company is it's product(the games) and the support for the games(patches, bugs/troubleshooting)

PR is mainly a tool to promote their service

Markos: If Firaxis ran its PR like you maintain Poly, I bet my major organs they'd sell a heck of a whole lot more games.

probable, but that's a bit irrelevant to the quality of their service

[yin26]

So you agree with better PR they'd sell more games. And yet:

that's a bit irrelevant to the quality of their service

MARKOS!!! More money won't allow them to provide a better service in the future???!!!

[MarkG]

Originally posted by yin26
Baseless? Markos: Ask around what people think of your relationship with developers. You are FAMOUS for looking the other way and shining only a good light. Again, that might actually be to our benefit since you and Dan own this site. Face it...you are FAMOUS for it.

being "famous" for something is one thing. being that thing is something else, right?

since you're not giving any examples and you're judging me based on what i'm "famous" of, i'll give you one

this is the news on the lack of a demo for civ3, written by me. please tell me how i'm "looking the other way" and how i'm "finding excuses" for firaxis

NO CIV3 DEMO!

Initially posted by Darkknight in the forums, Firaxis just now confirmed it to us.

There are no plans to for a Civilization 3 demo, either before or after the release.

This comes as a contradition to Firaxis' history, who had demos for all it's games up to now. Infogrames has had demos for most of the games it has published as well.

Of course there is a minority of people who didnt care for a demo... The only thing that is left now is to discuss this in the forums...

[korn469]

You are FAMOUS for looking the other way and shining only a good light. Again, that might actually be to our benefit since you and Dan own this site. Face it...you are FAMOUS for it.

Markos

that's just yin's way of inviting you to join in all of the negative speculation and kick the developer while their down games we enjoy so much

[MarkG]

Originally posted by yin26
MARKOS!!! More money won't allow them to provide a better service in the future???!!!

well, with the current PR they were able to make some pretty good games, didnt they?

[yin26]

First, let me be clear: I think as the owner of this site, gaming companies need to know without even thinking twice: 'Hey, Markos and Dan will give it their best shot to promote us.' I think that is good, and I think it is necessary. Leave the criticism to freaks like me.

I remember that post very well and was actually quite pleased that at least you said:

"This comes as a contradition to Firaxis' history."

Not exactly a scathing comment...not exactly saying 'It's hard to imagine how they could have made this decision' or anything, but it was probably about as close as you could say. It was a fact, after all, and not commentary.

This is a contradition to Firaxis' history. True. But what are the implications? That's where it gets interesting...and that's where you start looking at things only in the positive way. See what I am saying?

As for other examples, I don't have the time or interest to go back through 2 years of CtP posts...but it's all there. If you have EVER criticised Activision for the way it handled CtP, please show me so I can stop this line of argument with you since it's not really that important. Don't show me a post that says:

"As of today, we have confirmation that Activision will no longer patch CtP."

That's just posting news. Show me something with editorial:

"And after all this site has done to help the Activision team, I can only express regret and sadness that the fans have been left to try to fix a game that is still broken in many important ways."

But I doubt you'd ever say that: Why? Because you'd welcome Activision back in a minute if they started on CtP 3.

Finally, if you recall FoA4, I said you were 'fair' in that you don't go closing down other people's criticism if it isn't using bad language or a repeat of another thread or something. That's all I can ask of you, really, and you do that very well.

[yin26]

pretty good games: Yes.

Better games?

I think it will take better PR.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by yin26
Not exactly a scathing comment...not exactly saying 'It's hard to imagine how they could have made this decision' or anything, but it was probably about as close as you could say. It was a fact, after all, and not commentary.

This is a contradition to Firaxis' history. True. But what are the implications? That's where it gets interesting...and that's where you start looking at things only in the positive way. See what I am saying?

where do i stat looking things in only the positive way?

i'm writing the news yin, i give the facts. i'm not going to give your brain food ready for consumption

Show me something with editorial

if you want something editorial, see this

http://apolyton.net/misc/column/150_goodbye.shtml

i'm sorry if i dont express "regret" and "sadness" for how the activision managment handled things. i dont feel this way

But I doubt you'd ever say that: Why? Because you'd welcome Activision back in a minute if they started on CtP 3.

are you saying that as a site owner of the bigest site for civ games i should not welcome a big company who wants to make a civ game?

That's all I can ask of you, really, and you do that very well.

for a moment i thought you expected me to start a crusade to hang the firaxis pr people

[Fidel]

yin, cmon 'moderator' does imply being moderate, doesn't it? i feel that the debate on mp will end like the debate on graphics and roads over mountains....one day a screenshot appeared and everyone forgot about it.

[korn469]

i feel that the debate on mp will end like the debate on graphics and roads over mountains

hopefully it will turn out not to be true! i wouldn't mind if it was just a hoax