Now, if YOU were the Firaxis PR person...

[Capt Dizle]

Oh yin is always yin.

No MP is only a problem if there is no PBEM. For me at least.

I would never play a demo anyway.

I think that we should just cross our fingers and hope for great gameplay and a challenging AI.

yin, buddy, we know you and we know you wont be satisfied anyway...

I can understand that.

[Pembleton]

Originally posted by The diplomat
Yin: You ignored my MOO3 argument. The fact remains that if they delay civ3 a couple months so as to release the game with MP, then the game would be released too close to MOO3, and that would be very bad for sales. Civ3 and MOO3 share a very similar market, so if the games are released too close to each other, sales will be less because it will be split between the 2. They have to release civ3 and MOO3 several months apart so that the games don't "steal" sales frome each other.

This is not true. Icewind Dale was released around the same time as the mighty Diablo 2 and still did extremely well.

Also Civ3's audience is more broad-based than MOO3 as the "casual" gamer who plays Myst and Deer Hunter will buy it and won't even give MOO3 a casual glance.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by The diplomat
civ3 is officially in beta which proves that all main features anf graphics are final, Firaxis said so!

So you don´t think multiplayer is a main feature in Civ games? (I do, even if I haven´t tried it up to now.)

[Capt Dizle]

I would have to disagree that MOO and Civ will take sales away from each other. Veteran gamers who play the genre will buy both in the vast majority of cases.

Civ, if anything, would hurt MOO.

If I were in charge over there I would certainly want the game out in October. That is just smart marketing.

[splangy]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
I would have to disagree that MOO and Civ will take sales away from each other. Veteran gamers who play the genre will buy both in the vast majority of cases.

Civ, if anything, would hurt MOO.

If I were in charge over there I would certainly want the game out in October. That is just smart marketing.

Agreed.

Slowhand- More customers than you want to know actually couldnt give a damn what you say on a obscure website...

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by lockstep


So you don´t think multiplayer is a main feature in Civ games? (I do, even if I haven´t tried it up to now.)

That is not what I meant! Of course MP is an important feature, but it can be added later without interrrupting gameplay. That cannot be said about the trade feature for example. You can't release the game without trade and then add it in later in a patch. I said the game will be complete because all the *gameplay* features are done.

[Imran Siddiqui]

This is not true. Icewind Dale was released around the same time as the mighty Diablo 2 and still did extremely well.

Yes, but Icewind Dale is from Interplay, and Diablo 2 is from Blizzard.

Infogrames is publishing both Civ3 and Moo3.

And what is this Christmas argument? Civ3 will have to be delayed significantly to have it come out during the Christmas season!

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by The diplomat


That is not what I meant! Of course MP is an important feature, but it can be added later without interrrupting gameplay. That cannot be said about the trade feature for example. You can't release the game without trade and then add it in later in a patch. I said the game will be complete because all the *gameplay* features are done.

They tried this approach with Civ 2 MPGE , and as many MPers will testify, the game is full of loopholes that many people utilise to win that shouldnt be there if the game was desgined with MP from the start... All they did was make multiple human abiltiy , they didnt play test (or not enough) the little nuances in the game that were only made for SP... For a full list of such like go find Mings list of cheats for civ2 in the Appropaite forum, it ahs many :"Features" exposed that obviuslky work well for SP but not MP....

[yin26]

then the game would be released too close to MOO3, and that would be very bad for sales.

Infogrames has said it will release MOO3 "Three months after Civ3, whenever that might be."

I would just like you to watch the reviews that mention "missing demo" and (???) "missing MP." While most hardcore fans will likely buy Civ3 without those things, the more casual gamer will look at that with a degree of worry.

Finally, there are at least two ways to lose sales:

1) Release a game with CtP-like gameplay. Are you telling me that a few more months in the over would not have HELPED CtP?

2) Release a game without some standard features, giving reviewers plenty of opportunity to say "Well, you won't be able to demo the game, and for now you have no MP, which is terribly odd this day in age. With that in mind, wait for the first round of patches and watch for other people's reviews before you buy."

A faster release does NOT in any way mean more sales. That's just silly. You are talking about saving development time...unfortunately, it's the development time that will determine the sales, and it looks like they are cutting that time short. Most likely sales will be cut with it.

[Mister Pleasant]

Does that kind of information belong in an e-mail casually handed out to somebody who just happens to ask:

"Hey, how about a demo or MP?"

Hey Yin26, read the thread I started. I wasn't just a fan casually querying information. I was requesting an evaluation copy for a project and noted that the games I was seeking would require a PBEM feature. I was pretty shocked that the Communications Manager wrote back with information about their being no multiplayer. She probably figured that I did not frequent Apolyton. And on second thought, I probably should not have immediately posted that message on Apolyton without thinking. That was probably unprofessional of me to say the least.

Also, I forwarded the email firaxis sent me to Dan and Markos. Not to sound too paranoid, but - the fact that neither of them has posted in these forums leads me to believe they already KNOW that MP won't be included and are sitting on the information at Firaxis's request (who are probably worried about bad buzz). After all, its better for them to remain on Firaxis's good side and get more info quicker, than to annoy them by posting information that most likely escaped by accident.

Anyway Yin, I like the way you suddenly turn into an optimist about Civ3 the moment you hear some possibly negative news about Civ3. Guess you'll be pro-ordering now, right? Jacka$$.

[yin26]

Jacka$$

Whoa! Where the hell is that coming from? You make no sense. Where am I an optimist in ANY of this? I have ALWAYS been vocal about Civ3's problems and will continue to be. If there is a Jackass anywhere here, it's the guy who starts the NO MP thread without providing us the best proof he can.

And, yes, you were just a casual fan. Your "for my class" crap isn't any more important than some fan looking for information.

At least Kelley should have seen that even if you don't.

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by yin26
I would just like you to watch the reviews that mention "missing demo" and (???) "missing MP." While most hardcore fans will likely buy Civ3 without those things, the more casual gamer will look at that with a degree of worry.

And, I'd like you to watch for the reviews that praise the excellent gameplay.

Originally posted by yin26
1) Release a game with CtP-like gameplay. Are you telling me that a few more months in the over would not have HELPED CtP?

Are you saying that civ3 will have ctp like gameplay? All indications are that civ3 will have excellent gameplay.
A few months probably would NOT have helped ctp2 because the problem was a flawed design to begin with. The design team for ctp2 did not understand the civ genre.

Originally posted by yin26
2) Release a game without some standard features, giving reviewers plenty of opportunity to say "Well, you won't be able to demo the game, and for now you have no MP, which is terribly odd this day in age. With that in mind, wait for the first round of patches and watch for other people's reviews before you buy."

Are you saying that civ3 will be missing important features, require numerous patches to fix problems? Why are you assuming the worst for civ3?

Originally posted by yin26
A faster release does NOT in any way mean more sales. That's just silly. You are talking about saving development time...unfortunately, it's the development time that will determine the sales, and it looks like they are cutting that time short. Most likely sales will be cut with it.

As far as I know, Infogrammes was always shooting for an october release. So, if they release civ3 in october, they are releasing the game right on time. They are not cutting development time at all. However, if they delay the game just for MP, then they will be delaying it and thus increase the development costs which will cut into their profits.

They are doing the sensible thing: release the game on time, and release the MP later so that it can be as good as possible instead of the rushed MP of SMAC.

Why are you expecting the worst with civ3?

[Mister Pleasant]

Maybe "jacka$$" was out of line. I apologize.

As for using Civ3 in a class project . . .
Publishers send us free stuff all the time in the hopes that we adopt it for class use. The game companies I've contacted have for the most part been interested in my project. Look at it this way. If I select a game for a class, thirty to forty students buy a copy of the game. Other instructors will adopt a project like mine if it proves educational and interesting. More copies sold - future press releases note the educational application of game (might look good the next time Lieberman goes on a crusade also . . . imagine, Quake as educational software).

Its good business on their part to help out. I'm probably the jacka$$ for giving out information they did not believe would travel any further.

[yin26]

Why are you expecting the worst with civ3?

As I have said, I think Civ3 will be an excellent game EVENTUALLY. But out of the box, the concerns are clear:

** Perhaps no MP, which indicates they didn't pace development properly, and adding MP later can cause all kinds of problems.

** Major game elements (GA triggers, Civ attributes, etc.) are being changed even now. No big deal? Well, how can the AI be programmed to handle those changes in so short a time? = Unbalanced gameplay.

** No demo: This only further supports the lack of time lack of confidence feeling I have about Civ 3.

I could go on, but you have rosy glasses on while I have dark-tints. I suppose we'll both have to see what really happens.

[yin26]

Mister Pleasant: No worries.

I have taught at the university level for nearly 7 years now, 2 years at UCLA and 5 years now in Korea. I am aware of what you are saying...I got a copy of Virtual University the same way by telling them I work in university admin as well as teach, and I wanted to use the program to simulate some of our current university problems.

I understand it is good business for them. What is NOT good business is leaking major feature information like that.

I'm simply saying a seasoned 'Communications Manager' should have done much, much better than that. I think you'll agree. It's not your fault posting information you have recieved. This is a PR implosion.