This Week's Reasons to WAIT to Buy Civ 3:

[yin26]

Or do you think that simple and elegance = silly since you have always advocated a revolutionary, complex game?

On the contrary, I believe the GA should be simple and elegant. But it was introduced to us first as trigged by your unique unit winning in battle. I think we all agree that's a rather short-sighted way to do it: 1) Why would that victory somehow symbolize or push your entire civ to a GA and 2) Aren't there better measures we could use, as has been discussed? A certain degree of economic/cultural development, etc., would be a good, simple, elegant and far more reasonable and challenging trigger for the GA.

The fact that they are making the triggers better is great. The fact that these changes are coming weeks before duplication and Firaxis has an Infogrames gun to their heads is unsettling. Will Firaxis be able to fix these issues post-release should they need to?

Of course. But I won't pay full-price for a game released in that condition. Infogrames doesn't deserve it, and, quite frankly, unless this release date was sprung on Firaxis, they should have planned better.

[Master Marcus]

There will be some bugs and numerous patches, for sure. But I'm still confident the main SP campaign will be highly playable and enjoyable even before the first patch. After all, the game is not too innovative : it's a conservative threshold , an upgraded Civ2 with enhanced graphics et all.

Just see what they're doing with the MoO series ( MoO3 ), it's quite the contrary. I'm far more concerned about the AI in this case...

[- Groucho -]

Here, here Ancient.

Yin - why the constant assault? We know you're a "the cup's half-empty" kind of guy, but why try to spike CivIII's sales? If you want to ensure that Firaxis doesn't get the coin to finish MP keep up the trash talk. Not that I think anyone will not buy just 'cause you say so, but if you were successful the game wouldn't open big, Infogrames will figure Sid is old news and turn off the pipe. The glass being completely empty won't do much for any of us.

[yin26]

"keep up the trash talk"

1) Show me one thing that isn't a valid concern backed by valid evidence.
2) I have said the game will EVENTUALLY be great.

Therefore, this is not 'trash talk.'

"The glass being completely empty won't do much for any of us."

But denying the glass is leaking won't do much good, either.

[monkspider]

Re: This Week's Reasons to WAIT to Buy Civ 3:

First of all, let me state that it is indeed good to see you offically out of exile Yin.
But I must ask, what is 40-80 dollars (depending on whether you want the collectors edition or no) in the grand scheme of things for what, despite possible shortcomings, will almost certainly be the greatest game of all time? It is true the absence of multi-player out of the box is puzzling and the lack of a demo is a big letdown, but we must remember all of the things that Civ 3 does have going for it. A unique culture system, an intricate resource system, a number of "rise and fall of empire" features, overall superior game balance and AI. Of course, I have never seen the AI in action, but i would wager any ammount of money that it is at least quite a bit superior to the Civ 2 AI. And surely you wouldn't hesitate to buy Civ 2 if you haven't before or doubt it's excellence?
I understand your need to send a message to game makers for releasing what is potentially a unfinished game (but then again, it could be virtually completely finished by the time it's released, we won't know until then), but this is Civ 3 for pete's sake! This is legendary stuff, and that should override any personal vendetta against corrupt game companies. This isn't just any game here, it's SID MEIER's CIVILIZATION 3! There is a time for protest, but let's put that behind us for this one magical game. I ask you Yin to join the majority of us and get Civ 3 this fall. I ask only because I know what a valuable member of the communtity you are and how much you would add, sharing the same Civ 3 experience as the rest of us. Imagine, sharing the experiences of building your first army, or how the evil Persians exploited some nuances in the game you were unaware of and captured your capital or how the new tech tree is throwing your old strategies completely out of wack. These are priceless memories Yin! All for a price less than i have spent on some dinners.
And If the rest of my arguement is meaningless to you, then do it for Mother Korea!

[- Groucho -]

Hmmm ... does "trash talk" have to be unfounded to be "trash talk"?

Anyway - you didn't answer the question. Why do you feel the need to stop others from spending their money? Isn't it enough to just not spend your own?

[Steve Clark]

Fair enough, yin, I'll learn how to create a scenario to where Golden Ages are triggered based on certain economic/cultural conditions.

BTW, the glass is not leaking, you're just looking at the wrong glass.

[Steve Clark]

monk: Don't forget the different modes of winning, which was rated very high in the EC3 List.

[yin26]

Monkspider: LOL! That was a great post, thanks.

I must ask, what is 40-80 dollars (depending on whether you want the collectors edition or no) in the grand scheme of things

.

For me, it's about TIME not money. As you know, I'd happily invest lots of time, but I have a sort of principle in mind that developers and producers should avoid sending us games in such a manner and casually expecting us to pay full-price.

And it's about not wanting to waste time being frustrated by poor communication with Firaxis and hoping we get the patches we need, etc. Like I said, I'd rather buy the polished Civ 3 months from now and save myself a lot of needless hassle (and I save a few bucks, but that's more about 'Teaching the Man a lesson' LOL!).

However, it is awfully hard for me not to join in on release day. As a gamer, I'm a kind of Pavlovian Dog...ring the bell and I salivate. Unforunately, the feeding tube sown in my backside has begun to itch and I'm looking for better alternatives.

[monkspider]

This is true, thanks steve, plus I'm sure there are finer game elements that can't be experienced or described by a simple preview.

[yin26]

Why do you feel the need to stop others from spending their money? Isn't it enough to just not spend your own?

I didn't ask anybody not to spend money. I asked them to consider how there money and time might be better spent given the indications we have so far of the game's development.

Am I not allowed to present people with something to consider? I thought this was a forum...

As for 'unfounded,' make an argument not a statement.

[monkspider]

"However, it is awfully hard for me not to join in on release day. As a gamer, I'm a kind of Pavlovian Dog...ring the bell and I salivate. Unforunately, the feeding tube sown in my backside has begun to itch and I'm looking for better alternatives."
LOL

Although I would still argue that for just this one specific game protests should be put aside, and the game community should form an egalitarian celebration of the finer things in life. Your point is well taken of course. I shall be looking forward to your active presence in the Civ 3 community, and I have a sneaking hunch that an army of excited posters come this October may have you seeing things my way.

[Steve Clark]

Originally posted by yin26 I asked them to consider how there money and time might be better spent given the indications we have so far of the game's development.

Yeah, like wasting too much time on leader and unit animations.

[- Groucho -]

Originally posted by yin26
As for 'unfounded,' make an argument not a statement.

Forums are for statements, too.

I didn't say your reasons for being leery are unfounded. I just don't think they need to be unfounded to fall into the category of "trash talk". In sports, TT are words said to throw someone off their game or make them doubt. If they are well founded, so much the better.

As for not telling anyone to not spend their money - the title of the thread says it all.

Unfortunately, games are becoming a lot like movies, if they don't open big the publishers seem unwilling to throw follow up dollars at them. So your advice to delay purchase might be good on the micro level, if too many people take your advice there won't be an update.

But, as I said, I don't think there is much chance of that.

[yin26]

...like wasting too much time on leader and unit animations...

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic, but I actually do think those things were a waste of time but 1) lots of people like that kind of eye-candy, and I suppose it brings in new players and 2) Markos will run in here telling us that artists having nothing to do with design and programming.

I wonder how long Firaxis has known about this October / end of 2001 deadline?