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This Week's Reasons to WAIT to Buy Civ 3:

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  • This Week's Reasons to WAIT to Buy Civ 3:

    Well, I am out of exile. I am here to try in vein to keep many, many good people from spending more on a game than the game deserves. First let me make something clear:

    Civ 3 will EVENTUALLY be a great game. Once the first few patches, MP and good mods/scenarios are all in place, Civ3 could well be awesome. But I imagine that won't happen until about May-March of 2002. So the question you should ask yourselves:

    Do I want to pay FULL PRICE for a Civ3 in October that has various infuriating bugs, unbalanced gameplay, and lack of MP?

    Or would you rather not want to save some bad impressions and irritating waits for patches and promised features, all the while saving money AND sending a message to Infogrames that this kind of release strategy is a horrid one?

    I know, I know. Most of us here are game junkies and will buy this thing at the first chance, believing that the problems won't be that bad. I hope you are right, but here are some reasons I think you will be disappointed by Civ 3 out of the box:

    Civ3 with live and die by how well it is balanced, debugged and offers a full feature set out of the box. So far, some concerns (notice that most of these center on the 'unique civ' approach, which I think Firaxis found much harder to implement than it ever imagined...they should have consulted Ensemble Studios, but that is another matter):

    ** Things potentially as influential as GAs are still being radically fiddled with a few weeks before the game goes gold. How can the game AI be properly written to handle these kinds of changes in so short a time?

    ** Civ attributes are being fiddled with weeks before the game goes gold. How can the game AI be properly written to handle these kinds of changes in so short a time?

    ** Unique units seem somewhat quirky out ill-chosen. Don't be shocked if we see even THOSE being changed right up to the last minute.

    ** There will be no demo. (!!!???)

    ** MP may well come out many months from now and we might have to pay for it. (!!!???)

    Now, I realize that all games get tweaked even the minute before the master is sent to duplication (and thus some horrid bugs 'strangely' get left in as well), those things above indicate to me an overall pattern:

    Firaxis is pressed for time and has yet to feel really satisified with this entire unique civ concept so is still trying out stuff as we speak. And not releasing a demo and possibly even MP only further argues 1) lack of time and 2) lack of confidence in the game as it stands. I say this with such confidence because the SMAC demo was a huge success for them and because to repeat past MP debacles must come only under the pressure of something decidedly 'not good.'

    Yes, customizing could rectify many, many problems. But out of the box, I predict BIG problems. Thus, IF I decide to buy Civ3, it will only be once its price has dropped significantly in March or May and once MP, modding and the first significant patches are in place.

    I have been an unpaid beta tester too many times, thank you.
    I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

    "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

  • #2
    Sorry I have pre-order the game. Both boxes. I hope all goes well with the game. I will let you know.

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    • #3
      Yin, et al.:

      Those are all valid concerns. As an Apple Macintosh owner, all I can say is that I'm counting on you Windows users to catch all the bugs before Macsoft finishes its port of Civ III to our platform.

      CYBERAmazon
      "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire

      "Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius

      Comment


      • #4
        You make a point, bugs are likely to appear, no doubt. But if they're about GAs and unique units, you can just turn them off in the options, wait for the patch, and the fun will be almost the same (better than Civ2 at least, which I'm still playing often enough, eager with anticipation). After all, how hard is it to download a patch (assuming that they'll be needed at all) ?.

        I agree about the price issue, Civ3 will come out a bit pricey I'm sure, but I just can't wait anymore. I'd buy the beta right now if I could.

        But hey, while you wait until March-May next year (that's 5-7 months after release) for the price to come down and patches to be uploaded, those of us who will buy the game next month will keep you posted on how much fun we've been having (or not) with it for the past months.

        Comment


        • #5
          In the past few weeks Civ has looked very interesting (you could tell by Yin's decreasin pessimism). With this discovery that MP may not come with the "original" Civ3 then things start to swing the other way. If MP doesn't come with Civ3 I might not ever buy Civ3. The main reason for that is my principles and the second is my fear that Firaxis is scrambling and unprepared to release this game in the Fall. Just go look at some of Yin's examples. If MP does come with Civ3 I am willing to take a chance on the given examples. The given examples are much less likely if Firaxis proves that they are prepared to release MP. If MP had enough tmie to get done then I'm sure SP is more than efficient (great) without any patches. I guess at this point the including of MP with the "original" Civ3 will be my determing on factor of when/if I'll buy Civ3.
          However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

          Comment


          • #6
            its fine to fiddle with the civ attributes a couple weeks before. I assume that the ai is done. The civ specific abilities are tweakable because they are entirely editable and independent of the ai.
            Retired, and it feels so good!

            Comment


            • #7
              Sigh, might have to start calling you "Yin, the Broken Record".

              ** Things potentially as influential as GAs are still being radically fiddled with a few weeks before the game goes gold. How can the game AI be properly written to handle these kinds of changes in so short a time?
              You assume that an AI can be properly written in the first place. I expect the AI to be serviceable (which would make it far better than Civ2 and you still hear of thousands of folks still playing Civ2, even with its AI). While I agreed with you on having a smaller number of unique civs (as oppose to 16-32-64 of which most of them are the same), only through the use of events, txt file modifications and handicaps can one make the AI challenging for a deity player. So GAs being fiddled with now (if you assume that) can only be looked on as another degree of customization.

              I will make Civ3 in my image and they will give me the tools to do so. I don't want Civ3 in your image and others certainly wouldn't want Civ3 in mine.

              ** Civ attributes are being fiddled with weeks before the game goes gold. How can the game AI be properly written to handle these kinds of changes in so short a time?
              And from Day 1, they will be fiddled with even more. What difference does it make if I change the Chinese to expansionist or if Firaxis does it? The AI will read the rules.txt file and act accordingly within a set of parameters. Why would you (or another others) want an AI to be so rigid that it becomes predictable??? In other words, you want the Chinese to act and react the same way each and every game?!? That's ludicrous. In some games, I may want the AI civs to ALL act in one way (e.g., expansionistic) or I may want a variety. And we are not even talking about scenarios (which, imo, is far, far more important than the main game), where everything will be thrown out (terrain, rules.txt, tech tree, units, etc.) and rebuilt according to the scenario objectives.

              ** Unique units seem somewhat quirky out ill-chosen. Don't be shocked if we see even THOSE being changed right up to the last minute.
              Fine, I'll keep on changing the unique unit to something else. I don't want to play the main game of Civ3 and see the same unique units from the same civ acting the same way each time. That's not replayability.

              ** There will be no demo. (!!!???)
              I couldn't care less but that's just my opinion since I very rarely bother with demos.

              ** MP may well come out many months from now and we might have to pay for it. (!!!???)
              Wouldn't you rather have a product that went through its own development and testing cycle instead of being piggy-backed on (or just thrown in with) SP??? Separating out MP from SP versions means the potential of both products being better without one causing problems (or conflicting with) the other.

              Summary:

              I am coming from the viewpoint (and bias) that 90+% of the games that I will be playing with Civ3 will be scenarios and unique challenges that we will be coming up with in the Civ3-Strategy forum. The Civ3 main game will get old at some time in the near future and that is to be expected. It's the scenarios and challenges that kept Civ2 alive for years and Civ3 wouldn't be any difference. So all of this hand-wringing and braying about the fiddling of the main game of Civ3 just seems stupid to me because you haven't seen anything yet!

              Steve
              The Proverbial Thorn in Yin's Side

              Comment


              • #8
                We never heard from Firaxis that there wasn't an analogous peaceful GA trigger.

                They have been extremely tightlipped on many features.

                It is Yin's opinion that the peaceful trigger has been hastily thrown in to the game, creating possible balance issues.

                It is my opinion that it has always been there. They just neglected to tell us about it.

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                • #9
                  HawaiiFive-O: That is possible. I hope you are right. Once again, why has Firaxis allowed these impressions to begin with?

                  Steve: I understand your point, but I think you are in the minority. Most people want outstanding SP and MP out of the box without having to rely on other fans to make the game challenging and fun. So: "You assume that an AI can be properly written in the first place." Yes, I do.

                  EDITED: Steve, what you are really asking for is a Civ 3 Construction Set and not Civ3 the awesome SP/MP experience. While I understand you, Firaxis is certainly capable and we certainly deserve more than that.
                  Last edited by yin26; September 7, 2001, 22:31.
                  I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

                  "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Joseph: I eagerly await the After Action Reports.
                    I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

                    "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Umm...

                      And then I reread the Developer's Update that introduced the concept of the GA.

                      "Golden ages only occur once, last twenty game turns, and are triggered when any one of your civ-specific units wins its first combat against another civ. "

                      Gosh, you'd think they'd mention the peaceful trigger at that time too, wouldn't you?

                      I'm no longer so sure the Firaxis had the peaceful trigger in there all along...

                      Too bad, because I really want to believe in them and Civ3.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        HawaiiFive-O: Yes, that is how I drew my conclusion. To make things worse, that trigger for a GA is simply too silly for words to begin with...
                        I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

                        "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          id rather buy a unfinished civ than wait almost a year to buy a finished one..


                          have fun doing nothing..

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                          • #14
                            Ok, I'll bite (and I may regret doing this), given that a Civ game has units with certain attributes, civs with certain attributes, terrain variables, wonders and improvements, along with a resource-based economy, how would you construct a simple Golden Age trigger? We already got elite units, as well as the combination of wonders and improvements affecting a trigger. What else would be as simple. Remember it has to fit into the general scheme of the Civ god-game model (in other words, you can't construct a new model, just use what you are given). Or do you think that simple and elegance = silly since you have always advocated a revolutionary, complex game?

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                            • #15
                              LOL! Yes, because ALL I have in life is Civ3. If I don't find a great game to keep me busy during that time (there are a few other games than Civ, so I hear), I'll do what I really should be doing: Perfecting my Korean skills and continuing to teach myself Chinese characters.

                              Frustration free and with a little more money in my pocket.
                              I've been on these boards for a long time and I still don't know what to think when it comes to you -- FrantzX, December 21, 2001

                              "Yin": Your friendly, neighborhood negative cosmic force.

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