Holy S***! NO Multiplayer Until Spring!

[Sabre2th]

Originally posted by Mister Pleasant


Not that I'm obscessive about privacy . . .

I forwarded the email to Markos. He can check to see if I'm legit. Everybody who is curious should spam him about it. I'm suprised he hasn't posted in this forum yet. BTW, Markos, I forgot to mention that I go by Mister Pleasant around here in my email.

I don't see why you couldn't just post it..... It's just a little email, it wouldn't kill you.

[Admiral PJ]

Passing the turing test is the Holy Grail of us programmers - to make a computer behave exactly like a human, with memory, reasoning and creativity/emotions.
In my strategy game Mantra and other programs, i'm thinking of using a Fuzzy logic AI system, with changing variables that dictate how the computer is going to react, like with a Happiness Var that affects the subjects willingness to do things, or a var that tells a soldier how nervous he is, and if he sees an enemy this level goes up till it reaches a threshold and he panics and runs away..

You could always use Civilisation 2, or Civ2 Test of Time had reasonable AI.
The only other games i can think of are Red alert and Quake 3 bots (quake3 had pretty smart AI players that simulated humans , but they are so good normally that you can tell the difference between human players)
You ought to get a Chess Program, they use clever prediction techniques to work out the best possible moves, and chess is simple enough that it may fool the player to thinking the computers human.

PJ of the Rock

[Admiral PJ]

There was a Firaxis topic in apolyton about what we wanted for Multiplayer months ago, so i'm sure they are putting serious thought into it, perhaps the release will just not have all the multiplay options in.

Having said that, often games are developed either for multiplayer specifically or for single player. Often multiplayer sucks in a primarily single player designed game, so maybe its good that they work harder on putting the MP element in later (although I too hope we don't have to pay tonnes more for the privelage of MP)

PJ the Rocker

[Inverse Icarus]

maybe with the l33t editing tools and a knowledge of C, someoene could rig up a PBEM system .

make a program that cheat for you and changes the human player before you send the mail?

[Rasputin]

just out of interest ... how do you negotiate via PBEM ... do you jsut trust the AI to perform this for you !!!!

[Imran Siddiqui]

From the Civ3 FAQ:

We're working on some unique things with multiplayer, but we're not ready to start talking about it yet. It has always been challenging to make multiplayer really fun in turn-based games and we're looking at new ways of approaching that.

Hmmm... perhaps they didn't get those unique things to work yet.

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by EnigmaticGod
I don't know about you guys, but I will be downloading the game. And even though it will only be single player I am going to download the game. Then I will download MP too. Why waste the money? And if I'm really pissed off enough I will send firaxis a copy of my downloaded game so they know I won't pay money for their **** any longer.

You could just have said that you refused to buy it until the MP issue was solved...Always the rebel, right EoN?


Back to MP


I wasn't planning to buy Civ3 at the start but rather wait awhile for the players responses coming in. Usually the first results are always glowing so things need to cool down to get the real dirt in the open. Just take a look at the Ctp2 forum to see what i mean. Guess I'll have to wait a little longer now, 6months right?.

Oh well...


P.S
From a diplogamer's perspective it's a bit of a gripe that we'll have to wait. I read in an earlier thread that Civ3 would get some new MP options like simul turns for allied players.

Seems they bit off more than they could chew, such a shame.

[Inverse Icarus]

[WILL WORK FOR MP]

[Sirotnikov]

Re: i think you're missing the point

Originally posted by korn469
...there is a pattern developing with civ3

*no time to break the 8 civ limit that has been in the game since civ1 (you can add more civs but it is unsupported and probably unplayable)
*no time for a demo
*no time for an open beta (Jeff Morris was the one who originally said he'd like to have an open beta)
*no time to add Multiplayer (if this turns out to be true, it could be a hoax or a misunderstanding)

so does this mean we will learn a few more things about SP civ3?

*no time to ensure system compatability or general stability?
*no time to develop the AI?
*no time to ensure play balance?

that is what worries me about civ3...if i do become an early adopter then i will assume that firaxis didn't have time for any of those three either, and probably wont have the inclination or time to properly fix them

i feel like MP is just another canary in the coal mine that died, and many of you in here are telling me the reason that it died is because the air is too good (ie the argument that SP has been perfected and they are now turning their attention to perfecting MP and wouldn't bother us will bland features like hotseat, lan, PBEM and internet play), and not because we're about to run into some very bad air (ie that SP will be rushed and not live up to its potential)

i honestly don't think that firaxis wants to make a rushed half-a$$ product but i think that infogrames NEEDS sells in the fourth quarter...the recently posted a loss, and they need a hit

the ideas presented in civ3 so far sound excellent, but it's the implementation of those ideas that is key...i don't doubt that firaxis has alot of good ideas...but will they have time to make sure they all work?

we haven't heard anything official from firaxis about the AI...will it be the next thing that will be coming out in May?

I'm scared to say, I painfully agree with you.

It does appear that FIRAXIS has a product with loose ends and problems that it needs to publish since it has been developed for too much time. Something like WarCraft 3, which was revolutionary in 1998, but now, still developed, it's not.

Civ III changed some things drastically,but then completely ingored other things like FIRAXIS's own SE, PW which could be inttegretaed in city territories only, Random Leaders (who will be responsible for the random traits of each civ).

They also ignored apparently basic things like : 3rd Speed up improvement (road, rail road, and???).

They made the number of (standard) units smaller and the number of techs smaller, which detracts from accuracy.


My feeling is that the casue for all this is the selfish decision of some members to leave the project and form BHG, for hwich i will probably hate them , and Sid's idea to start making a dinosaurs game midway Civ III's prouction.

These constant changes and cutbacks on man power on Civ III probably caused many reforms in the attitutde towars the game, and currently, their main goal is to publish what they can of the game.

I don't doubt the game is playable, and it is probably very fun, but it's mainly Civ II with culture, unique units and small wonders. All nice things, but unique units isn't really civ=like and culture is the only thing justifying increasin the number in the title from Civ 2 to Civ 3.

I'm genuinly sorry for the developers as well, as i think it wasn't their fault that much, but I'm also sorry for me. I will ahve to paly Civ III which did not realise it's full potencial. Far from it.

[Bleyn]

Amen!

Originally posted by Rhysie
People saying they are going to download it just because it doesn't have MP support are cheap idiots.

If it isn't worth buying because of that, why is it worth stealing? At least if you are going to steal it have a decent reason. If you were going to buy it with MP, but you won't with SP, then don't download it with SP, just wait until it comes out as MP, then either buy it or think up a better reason to download it.

Or just admit that you're going to download it because you are cheap and have such a big ego that you think you have a divine right to own everything, and if something isn't totally perfect you think you have a divine right to own it for free.

Don't use this issue as a cover up to hide your low morality.

You can say that again. Though I would say people like that are much worse than cheap idiots.

SOAPBOX MODE ON!

Choosing not to buy a new game because you are not happy with the game's developers and the things they choose to do or not to do with a game is one thing. This is simply voting with your pocketbook, a basic part of our nations economy.

But choosing to download the game, or even getting a burned copy from someone else because you "aren't happy" with what the game developers have done? That excuse is pure sophistry. And the act itself isn't just stealing from the company. Really, you are stealing from everyone who plays these games, including yourself. Yes, I really do mean this.

If a game does not sell well, the developers of that game may not be able to produce one of its ilk again. That is if they aren't forced to close down their shop altogether.

For example, I have seen people associated with Quicksilver mention in several different places that they would like to make a Master of Magic 2. However, every mention of this I have seen from them has included a very big "But". That caveat? In order to have a chance of getting Infogrames to go for a MOM2 game, they are going to have to do quite well with MOO3. And I'm pretty sure they aren't just meaning that the game itself. The game could have perfect reviews from everyone and their brother. It could get more awards then you can shake a lightsaber at. BUT if it does not have good sales... The publishers may still say NO to another game project from the developers.

And you know what, that is perfectly within the publishers rights, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. But the thought that we, the gaming public, might be denied such a game because a bunch of sorry-a**ed whiners self-righteously choose to steal a copy rather than acquiring one legitimately or just not buying the game... And all because its not 100% to their liking... Well, obviously, that just torques me off.

To me, it all boils down to this, if you aren't going to buy the game, fine don't buy it. But if you want the game, and are going to get the game, don't cheat yourself and everyone else by stealing it. Pay the $$, or if you must, as someone else suggested, wait a while, at the very least the price will come down.

Soapbox Mode Off

If I have offended anyone who has issues with Firaxis and/or Infogrames over developmental choices in the production of Civ3, and who chooses not play the game at all because of it, I apologize. You were not my intended targets.

I had seen more than one person in this thread mention stealing a copy of Civ3 instead of buying it, and felt that a rant on what they were really costing all of us was justified.

[tniem]

Bleyn,

There is another way to look at this. I am very concerned about what lack of MP might mean for the entire game not just MP but also what else did they cut to make deadline. So I want to try the game out before I spend $50 on it. That would normally mean downloading a demo. But Firaxis doesn't have time for that either.

So the only option I have is pirating it to start and then purchasing it later if and only if it is worth it.

And don't tell me that people that pirate don't end up buying the game. The Sims and Black and White are bought and paid for only because I tried out the full version before purchase. Tropico and Imperialism were bought for their demos. Other times I have played pirated games and found out that they aren't worth a dime. Thank goodness that the consumer has a way to make sure they aren't just shoveling junk down my throat. Which is exactly what Infogrames appears to be doing.

[DanS]

I don't think I'll be buying without MP, and I definitely won't be buying if it's part of an Ultima Online-like revenue model for MP (this might be where things are headed).

I have experienced the goodness of MP and cannot go back. It just doesn't make sense to release an SP-only game, when more than half of your market is online...

[Depp]

If they download and try it, and don't like it and never play it.... fine. If they download it and like it, and go and buy it....fine. Everything else is theft....

[Ralf]

Re: My Letter to Firaxis

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I just heard that Civ3 will be released without multiplayer.

They have only postponed it. Theres a difference.
They add it later together with the expected expansion-pack instead.

[SITS]

I'm very disappointed if it ships without MP but I will buy the game. I like Civ and I've bought so many versions of it already - TOT, MGE, Ultimate etc. Buying a completely new version is too tempting. The only way I will download a warez version is if the release date for the UK is later. I will delete it when I can buy it in the shops.

Over the last few months I've really got into playing SMAC/X MP and to say I'm addicted is an understatement! I think Infogames/Firaxis would be silly to release it without MP but then they have enough mugs like willing to buy it.