Civ3 IS Civ 2.5 but not what you think

[korn469]

Dan is right, abondonware is not legal...however i really do think that the copyright holders and the abondonware community should be able to come to some sort of agreement over the issues

look at the pharmaceutical industry...they award patents on drugs to give a company an economic incentive to develop new drugs, but after so many years the patents expire...i think prozac's patent expired earlier this year, even though this was going to cost it manufactorer millions of dollars because of generic brands of the drug...yet abandonware cost the copyright holders of games nothing, and in fact it probably gives then a slight boost to sales but they seem to love to shut down abandonware sites; don't get me wrong i think warez sites deserve to be shut down, and i don't support warez at all, but abandonware is different

just imagine in the year 2050 if someone was looking around in a basement and found a daikatana cd-rom...then they translated this game and put it up on whatever networks they use then...that means unless laws change then they could get sued for copyright violation of a game that was a big flop and that few wanted to play anyway

i wish there would be an abandonware clause in the copywrite laws, i used to own ghengis khan for the NES before my NES tore up and i gave all of my NES related things away, then about a year or two ago i downloaded the ROM version of gk and played it for a couple of weeks...did that hurt either koei or nintendo? not hardly, is it really piracy to download a game you used to own before your severly outdated system died? i don't really think so...especially not since nintendo is going to rely on the gamecube to generate sales for it...i really wonder when the last retail copy of ghengis khan for the NES sold

i believe if you like a company then buy the games it makes...i bout two copies of diablo2 on the second day it came out and i bought two copies of diablo2: lord of destruction on the first day it came out, so i spent about 180 dollars on diablo2 (my brother couldn't afford to buy it and i wanted for both of us to be able to play) so i always try to put my money where my mouth is...if you get a copy of civ1 then makesure you go and buy civ3, not only will you help firaxis out you'll also get a better game than civ1

[Gramphos]

The main reason for Abondonwares is that people want games that no longer are sold. Either because they have heard that they are very good, or because they have a sequel and wants to play earlier versions to compare.
I know Abandonwares are illegal, but they harm nobody, as long as that specific game/application only has made small changes from one version to another, so that you don't think you require the newest one if you can obtain an older.
Many companies give away old applications/games they have made in campaigns to make people buy newer versions. They might change the credits to always show up, and have announcements for the sequel. Civ 1 could for instance have some banners for Civ 3 added, and given away at the Internet or together with a Computer Magazine, but it can't be sold any more.

[isaac brock]

its not a civ-related game, but one of the best abandonware games is Sid Meier's ( ) Covert Action. It's at the underdogs and you're supposed to be an agent for the CIA. you do wiretaps, you can trace peoples vehicles or tail them, and you get to sneak into buildings with uzis and grenades and arrest people (or turn them into double agents). Could Sid consider a remake of this game? it's sweet.

[Timeline]

Originally posted by Gramphos
Civ 1 could for instance have some banners for Civ 3 added, and given away at the Internet or together with a Computer Magazine, but it can't be sold any more.

Oh my God, this appeared in the Civ 3 news section about an hour after your post:

Firaxis Games Communications Manager Kelley Gilmore delivered the news and the cover shot to us this afternoon. In doing so, she also mentioned something on the magazine's cover CD that should also be of interest to fans: the windows version of the original Civ is included.

You sure you aren't psychic Gramphos?! lol!

This changes everything for me. Now that Firaxis is re-releasing Civ 1, I think I am gonna buy the magazine instead.

THIS IS REALLY COOL

Anyone have any comments on this sales move? Good? Bad? . . . INGENIOUS! He he. Well I can now see how an abandonware version of civ would be very bad now that it is available “for sale” so to speak, as some people would not buy the magazine if they already had it (illegally). I also now understand why Dan Magaha so quickly stepped in to set us straight on the copyright.

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Timeline
You sure you aren't psychic Gramphos?! lol!

I don't know. I just think that great minds think alike.

This changes everything for me. Now that Firaxis is re-releasing Civ 1, I think I am gonna buy the magazine instead.

THIS IS REALLY COOL

I must have that magazine! Where can I find it in Sweden?

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Timeline
Anyone have any comments on this sales move? Good? Bad? . . . INGENIOUS! He he. Well I can now see how an abandonware version of civ would be very bad now that it is available “for sale” so to speak, as some people would not buy the magazine if they already had it (illegally). I also now understand why Dan Magaha so quickly stepped in to set us straight on the copyright.

Hmmm, two smart moves from Firaxis:
1) they promote their Civ serie just a month before the Civ 3 goes to the shop (they get the benefit of game inclusion, not the magazine IMHO: I wonder who pay who for the transaction )

2) they "fake" the newbie players to compare Civ 3 with Civ 1, a sure "first glance" greater improvement than that from Civ 2 IMHO

On a side note, I agree that laws are laws, but 75 years of copyright on sw? Come on! Neither my PC is so old!

Abandonware sites and Authors/Publishers should agree on a more realistic limit: it seems better for everyone if best of oldies never rest forgetted under the dust.

Giving the permission to distribute it in a game magazine CD is probably a step into the right direction.

[Skanky Burns]

Also from the site Dan posted:

If you absolutely must play an older game, go ahead and snag a copy from someone. Yes, this is illegal; I should probably be publicly flogged for suggesting it. But a private individual lending a game to another private individual is hardly something worth spending time and money prosecuting. As long as you are discreet and don't attract attention to yourself, you will be largely ignored.

Just for the record, i do have the original Civ 1, still in its original box.

[Timeline]

"As long as you are discreet and don't attract attention to yourself, you will be largely ignored. "

The same applies to shop lifting too, this doesn't mean I am going to go out and do it. You won't be prosecuted for downloading abandonware, or even warez either, does that mean it is okay to do?

Unfortunately, most people believe that when it comes to illegal practices, it all comes down to what you feel is right and what you can get away with.

I try not to force my ideas on the subject on others, but I think that breaking laws just because the law can’t enforce them - is wrong.

My personal feelings are that -in some cases- downloading abandonware is wrong, in some cases, it’s not.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Timeline

"As long as you are discreet and don't attract attention to yourself, you will be largely ignored. "

The same applies to shop lifting too, this doesn't mean I am going to go out and do it. You won't be prosecuted for downloading abandonware, or even warez either, does that mean it is okay to do?

Unfortunately, most people believe that when it comes to illegal practices, it all comes down to what you feel is right and what you can get away with.

I try not to force my ideas on the subject on others, but I think that breaking laws just because the law can’t enforce them - is wrong.

My personal feelings are that -in some cases- downloading abandonware is wrong, in some cases, it’s not.

If a law can't be or isn't enforced, it's really just a suggestion. And in that case, it comes down to how the individual feels about it.

Infact, you prove this with the last line in your post, where you say that you think in some cases it's OK, even though you know that in all cases, it's not legal.

[korn469]

posted by Timeline
The same applies to shop lifting too, this doesn't mean I am going to go out and do it. You won't be prosecuted for downloading abandonware, or even warez either, does that mean it is okay to do?

Unfortunately, most people believe that when it comes to illegal practices, it all comes down to what you feel is right and what you can get away with.

I try not to force my ideas on the subject on others, but I think that breaking laws just because the law can’t enforce them - is wrong.

to me there is a huge difference between downloading an old game that isn't sold any longer off the internet and actually going into a place of business and taking one of their products

copyright laws are made by politicians, who we all hope are acting in the interest of all when they make a law, however a law might have been proposed in the united states by an elected representative whose political career depends upon campaign contributions from those that the proposed law would benefit most, so this politician is going to do everything in his power to make this law as beneficial to his contributors as possible...this politician isn't taking everybody's best interest into account, instead it is the best interest of the campaing contributor and the politician's career

you might laugh and say that such unethical things do not exist in your country, and that elected officials act in the best interest of all...but because of treaties your nation signed with the US, you are now under the jurisdiction of US copyright laws enacted not to be in the best interest of all but to be in the best interest of what we could call here in the US a special interest group...you now have to comply with laws that are not in your best interest, nor are these laws even in the best interest of the majority of people...sometime these laws aren't even in the best interest of the special interest group that payed for them

by stealing games, either through shoplifting or through warez then you are hurting yourself in the long run because you destroy the economic incentive that goes into making games...infogrames will only make civ4 if civ3 made a profit, if civ3 ends up losing money for infogrames then there is no way they will pay for another civ game

however by procecuting fans of actual abandonware (out of date software, which i would say would be at least five years old, that is no longer for sale) the computer games industry is hurting itself...at least a few fans have a demand for this and the goodwill a company could earn would more than make up for the cost of trying to provide these games to people...there is only so much retail space for games, and packaging and distributing games is fairly expensive, especially when there isn't that much of a demand for them, most stores wouldn't want to carry them...older games are usually small and can easily be distributed over the internet...i really hate the negative aspects of globalization, but there are good parts, like talking to other people who share my interest all around the world

i bet that civ1 isn't much larger than the SMAC version 4.0 patch, so it would be well within firaxis's technical means to provide civ1 from the civ3 website however i don't think that firaxis owns civ1, but i think infogrames does, so i think it would be nice if firaxis and infogrames worked out a deal to offer civ1 free to fans...this would certainly increase sales, because who wouldn't wanna play a better version of the game? it's not like if id gave doom1 away that it would hurt the upcoming sales for the upcoming doom:3

so Dan what about it? think Firaxis and Infogrames could work out a deal to make civ1 a download from the Civ3 site?

[lord of the mark]

US (international?) copyright law does give an owner 75 years protection - tht is true - and it does so EVEN IF they pull their product off the market - downloading ordinary abandonware is therefore illegal, and arguably unethical (since a publisher may have good reason for keeping an older product off the market, such as to prevent cannibalization of later versions, protect a name for future use, etc)

However it is also possible to let a copyright lapse. IIUC the most popular abandonware site states that it will pull a game from the site at the request of the publisher, for any reason. Thus the games there are ones that the publishers have not requested be pulled off. Arguably they have thus allowed their copyrights to lapse. Now one could argue that explicit permission is required, rather than the implicit permission given by silence, but this seems an undue burden on such a site, given the difficulty and expense of tracking down copyright holders of abandoned games. AFAIK there is no settled law on this matter.

Note well: I myself have never downloaded such abandonware, even where I believe a legal case could be made for it.

LOTM