Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Civ3 IS Civ 2.5 but not what you think

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Civ3 IS Civ 2.5 but not what you think

    D E S I G N E R S ’ N OT E S

    The main inspiration for Civilization was the success and reception of Railroad Tycoon. We were very pleased with how Railroad Tycoon worked and began looking for a suitable topic to which we could apply some of its better concepts. Thinking back, we can’t recall now what triggered the idea of making the new game about the history of civilization, but once the topic arose, it quickly became obvious that it fit our specifications.

    The central concept to Civilization was that it was to be a “god game,” casting the player as the hero and ruler of a civilization over the course of its history. In this role he would guide and build his civilization, watching it grow and expand, rise or fall. As play proceeded the player could see the results of his decisions unfold and success would hinge on his relative skill.

    We also wanted Civilization to require the decision maker to juggle several balls at once. We found in Railroad Tycoon that this helped keep the challenge and interest high. As Sid sketched out the basic design, he evolved the various hats the player would wear.

    Clearly he would be the military commander, moving his armies against rivals. A second role was that of economic planner. Wearing this hat, the player would plan the placement, growth, and production of cities. The player would have to decide between “guns or butter,” producing military hardware or economic enhancements for his civilization.

    The player would also have to decide upon the direction of research for new knowledge. This again would often be a guns or butter decision, as some advances improved internal conditions and others made the military more potent. The player would have to judge which avenue of research was most useful at any one time, and be prepared to change if conditions warranted it.

    As design work continued, additional player roles were added. He would have to conduct his own diplomacy. By keeping track of rivals through the reports of his advisors, the player would have to make judgments on whom to appease, whom to attack, whom to make friends, and whom to ignore. In addition, the management of each city was made more complex, forcing the player to spend more time to keep his cities efficient and stable.

    With all of these duties falling to the player, we felt that we had come up with a mix of interesting decisions that would keep the player challenged, and result in a game that was fun and addictive.

    Another major concept that we wanted to borrow from Railroad Tycoon was the variability of worlds that made every game different. This worked very well, as in the previous game, making the play fresh each time.

    We also decided early on to include the hidden map. We found that this contributed significantly to the fun and interest of play. Another feature that Sid developed was the Civilopedia, the on-line encyclopedia of game concepts. We thought this would especially help new players.

    Most of these game features were in place in a rough form by the end of the winter of 1990-1991. Thereafter work proceeded mainly by the trial and error process of coding, testing, reviewing, and re-coding. Through the spring and summer a new version appeared every day or so, and the design became more refined. We made adjustments in the list of technology advances, we juggled their relationships, we made changes in the types and values of military units, we adjusted the time length of turns, we curbed the danger presented by barbarians, and, most critically, we continually improved the artificial intelligence of the rival civilizations.

    Among the interesting features that didn’t make the final cuts were ocean minefields that could be laid by Ironclads; alcoholic beverages (proposed by some as a major impetus for the first permanent settlements); Solar Power Plants; Fighter-Bombers 8-8-8(32); the Super Highways Wonder that speeded road building; Charlemagne, king of the Franks; and a much more detailed spaceship.

    The most important feature that went in as the game neared completion was the concept of trade routes established by Caravans. This helped with the generation of knowledge and the establishment of strong economies. It also encouraged exploration and diplomacy.

    Also important was the home city concept, especially under the Republic or Democracy. Originally, military units cost $2 maintenance each under these governments, then only $1 if they were fortified or on sentry duty. When military units caused unhappiness instead, this seemed to work more as one would expect. It became more difficult to wage war under these governments and provided an interesting trade-off for the improved economic performance.

    The last major feature to be included was the Space Race. We had tossed around several ideas for ending the game but eventually returned to space, one of the earliest ideas. Reaching another planet with colonists from Earth made an excellent culmination for the history of humankind on our planet.

    Like Railroad Tycoon, Civilization has been a great project to work on. In fact, important work has often been delayed because it was so much fun to play. Civilization has proven to be extraordinarily popular with our colleagues here at MPS Labs, and that’s a good sign. With so many cool features and interesting decisions, plus an endless supply of new worlds, we are certain that Civilization is the last game you’ll ever need. But, just in case you disagree, we’ll start on something new as soon as this one goes out the door.

    Sid Meier
    Bruce Shelley
    September 11, 1991
    It looks like to me that Civ3 is going to be the philosophical sequel to the Original Civilization and not to Civ2 and certainly not to SMAC. Most of the above will certainly apply to civ3 and it seems like civ3 is going back to it's roots. So when I say civ3 is civ2.5 I don't mean it as an insult, but instead as a compliment, I mean it as a sequel (to Civ 1) that goes above and beyond the call of duty. If one cares to go back and read The List, or most of the fan suggestions then they would see that we have asked for a larger number of more complex subsystems. However, instead of listening to us the Civ3 team has went back to the original civ and concentrated most on making Civ3 fun.

    There are two ideas in particular that I remember that would have certainly made significant progress in making Civ3 more complex and realistic. The first of those is The Joker's very detailed idea of Social Interaction (SI) inspired by the discussion in the improved Social Engineering threads, and the second idea (that I cannot contribute to just one author because I’m going from memory alone) is the idea of a realistic resource and manufacturing system (not like what they implemented in Civ3 but something more like the system used in Imperialism, something truly complex, that every unit had a cost in steel beams/ concrete/ aluminum siding/ lumber/ man-hours for example). These two ideas if combined would have easily increased the complexity of Civ3 exponentially. Yet, I have no idea if they would have increased the fun of Civ3 any at all, much less exponentially. It is possible that they might have increased the fun in Civ3 far more than they did the complexity, we may never know, but the reason that most people (including me) wanted these ideas incorporated was to make Civ3 more realistic.

    Now I am not saying that realism doesn't have a place in Civ3, instead what I am saying is that I think many of the fans got caught up in trying to realistically depict everything possible in human history, whereas firaxis has concentrated on boiling down everything to the most essential subsystems and trying to make each one of them as interesting as possible. Almost everyone would rather play a game that only lasted thirty minutes but all thirty minutes was fun; compared to a game that lasted two hours, but only thirty minutes was fun while the other hour and a half was just tedious.

    I am optimistic for civ3 and I think it will be quite fun. I think that although firaxis has changed many things and has slimmed down some areas it will be for the best. I was very disappointed (for a long long time) at seeing SE was out of civ3, but now I see more in what direction they are going and until I play civ3 I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. This is for everyone out there who is upset at having their favorite feature either not included, or cut out of the game, or reformulated with a smaller role. Civ3 is going to be fun, it might have been more fun in other ways, but Sid and firaxis are going to concentrate on making it as fun as they possibly can. Who knows, maybe civ3 might just be the last game we ever need.

    For all of those who still want more depth in your game, please check out the Alternative Civ section here at Apolyton. There are a number of interesting games in various stages of development. These games have a number of different theories on how to make a great game and most likely, you'll find one that you like. If not come up for a game concept and test the waters with it here. If you find enough like-minded people then maybe your project will be the next big civ like game.

  • #2
    Hey Korn, the alt civs are pretty good, but, I don’t play them because they are all for multiplayer. Are there any ones that are made for single player, and have a good AI?

    Comment


    • #3
      Timeline

      iirc i thought that Ron said Manifest Destiny is going to have a neural net based AI, but i don't remember exactly...i know that the civ evolution project uses user built AI and has a couple floating around out there and you can find it here www.c-evo.org and you can play freeciv in single player mode but i'm not sure if you would consider the AI good

      Comment


      • #4
        What does iirc mean? What is a neural net based AI? (sounds interesting). And, has anyone found Civilization I on the net yet (Warez or otherwise?) Since I couldn't buy it if I wanted to, I don't think it would be wrong to donwload. I have all the other Civ games and I just really want to see what the original Civ is like.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Timeline
          What does iirc mean?
          iirc - If I Remember Correctly
          ____________________________
          "One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
          "If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
          ____________________________

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Timeline
            What does iirc mean? What is a neural net based AI? (sounds interesting). And, has anyone found Civilization I on the net yet (Warez or otherwise?) Since I couldn't buy it if I wanted to, I don't think it would be wrong to donwload. I have all the other Civ games and I just really want to see what the original Civ is like.
            Go to www.abandongames.com
            Free and legal ! Civ is no more protected by a copyright.
            M. le Comte

            Comment


            • #7
              Hey Great! Thanks very much.

              Comment


              • #8
                so wouldnt that make civ3 civ2 not civ 2.5? then what the hell is civ2, civ3? so maybe we shouldnt look forward for a sequel we should look backwords..

                Comment


                • #9














                  This was very interesting!!! But, korn, how did you get that "Designers note"? By stealing it??? God forbid!!!
                  Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God.-Isaiah 41:10
                  I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made - Psalms 139.14a
                  Also active on WePlayCiv.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by M. le Comte


                    Go to www.abandongames.com
                    Free and legal ! Civ is no more protected by a copyright.
                    Just FYI:

                    "3 Q: Haven't the copyrights for old games (like Atari & Commodore) expired?
                    A: U.S. copyright laws state that copyrights owned by corporations are valid for 75 years from the date of first publication. Because video & computer games have been around for less than three decades, the copyrights of all video and computer programs will not expire for many decades to come. "

                    (From http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Abandonware/faq.html)


                    Another interesting article on the topic can be found at MobyGames:




                    Dan
                    Firaxis Games, Inc.
                    Dan Magaha
                    Firaxis Games, Inc.
                    --------------------------

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      yeah but no one obeys copyright laws when refuring to pc

                      not trying to be disrespectfull to the govternment that made these laws but its the trueth the internet is open to anything and no one can stop it..

                      you cant buy civ1 new anywhere so i think you guys should be supporting its download, encourage keeping the history of gaming alive

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Civ3 IS Civ 2.5 but not what you think

                        Edit: I figured out the answer the to my dumb question.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Abandonware is something that the game community needs to address. Developers don't want the games to be distributed, but at the same time, the games are not available anywhere.

                          Imagine if this were music or books. Would you want an author stopping the distribution of a novel on the internet that has been out of print for years?

                          Or is Civ1 still being patched by Microprose?

                          If you want an example of how abandonware should be handled, check out www.theunderdogs.org. He takes down games if the developer/publisher asks, and digs up old classics that a lot of people haven't had the chance to play. And anything that's being sold is not available on his page, but he links to where you can get it.
                          ----
                          "I never let my schooling get in the way of my education" -Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Alot of companies are really anal-retentive when it comes to abandonware and actively pursue and stop any site that is offering their games for download, even if they are no longer being sold / produced.
                            Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

                            Do It Ourselves

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Im not gonna argue if "abandonware" is OK or not. Strictly speaking its not legal.

                              For me the term "abandonware" means games so old that it is impossible for the original company (if still alive) to repromote them/ make money on them - even at heavily reduced prize. Most of these old games is simply hopelessly outdated.
                              The developers still own the copyrights, and nobody can simply steal the name & game-idea and make updated sequels of it, of course. But commercially speaking, no one is going to lose money just because of some gamers download & play these old versions for free. Its mostly gamers who are stuck with old system due to small wage/ bad economy who bothers with it. Either that or nostalgia-reasons.
                              Nevertheless there are some few gems available out there - like "Little Big Adventure II" from 1997/Activision (yes, I bought a legal copy back then). If Activision ever decides to release a third sequel, I sure will buy it intantly. Its a true classic.
                              Last edited by Ralf; August 27, 2001, 14:23.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X