J'accuse!

[KrazyHorse]

Really? Did you do this one?

[MarkG]

Most of the sites were not done by anyone I've heard of in the civ community. Moreover, they were very professional looking. And they all had the same graphics, news, etc. that is available on the official site, but not much more.

Looking at them in more detail, I found: they all have legalistic copywrite notices, some claim to serve other games such as CTP, but these links don't usually lead anywhere, they are in English, French, German, and Spanish (there's also a site in Polish), some had other features, like forums, but they were usually under construction, or had a few obviously contrived posts. Almost all were established since June. Some suggest that they are the creation of a single individual, with a little testimonial to Civ2, but there's only an email or ICQ address to identify them. Not all sites listed fit the above description, however.

i'm not sure which sites you refer too, but lets see

CivCenter: been there for a long time now
CivMedia: hardly describbed as "professional looking"
Civworld: there used to be a civworld site in the past, dont know if there is a connection
Civ2000 : made by Bebro, who also does civ2 scenarios
Civ III: GeO : has been around for a while, i should have mailed for some time now cause he is linking to our civ2 files
The Civ III Site : falls in the unprofessional category
civ3.de : opened this month
Civ3.prv.pl : never seen it before.
Civ III Group @ Yahoo Groups : havent visited it before
The Civilization III Arsenal : done by someone from civfanatics
Civilization III @ Fuerst-rabe.de : opened in may, again hardly called "proffessional"
Civilization 3 Info und Fanpage : opened this month
Civilization Fanatic's Center : been there a really long time of course...
Civilization Nation : opened in late july, again hardly called "proffessional" (am i geting boring? )
Crousto's Civ Site : started from ctp i think
Das Civilization Universum : over a year old
Eltaranna : been there for some time now
Europa Eyn's World : same as above
Gothia Global : never seen it before
The Guardians Clan : never seen it before
The Grenouille.com Civ III Site : never seen it before
Voyager's Site : never seen it before
Zoso's Civilization III : started a really long time ago, but barely updated


hope i have somehow helped you....



Dan, you read the OT!!!!

[- Groucho -]

Of course Dan would say that - he's one of ... them. Haven't you noticed his title? "Webmaster" - you think it refers to the world-wide-web of computers, but it is really a world wide web of deceit. He lurks in the centre of his web pulling on his strings, enticing poor unsuspecting souls to read his websites and ....

That's it. I'm stuck. I can't think of even an insane crackpot reason for Dan to spend his time making fake sites.

[techumseh]

j'mange de la crow

Well, I figured out how to prove my point. I checked all the domain registrations of the sites, assuming that if they were all registered at the same time, to the same people, then I would be right. Unfortunately, they were registered at different times to different people - and not to Firaxis. So I'm wrong. And a bit paranoid too, I guess.

So my sincere apologies to Dan and Firaxis. I'll definitely do more research before jumping to conclusions next time. This website gives the recipie for my next meal: http://www.crowbusters.com/recipes.htm I knew I shouldn't stay up late watching X-files reruns!

Now back to that Jim Morrison forum....

[Skanky Burns]

Well Techumseh, just look on the bright side... This was a very amusing and entertaining thread

I especially like Dans footnote

(just as soon as I finish laying down my nightly crop circles)

LOL

[Harlan]

I hate to bring this thread back up, since it doesn't seem relevant to Firaxis's case and is a dead story. But to answer the question would companies really fake fan websites? The answer is yes. I knew I read an article about this somewhere, and today I recalled where- www.salon.com. Some people might find this article interesting - I know I did.


Did "The Blair Witch Project" fake its online fan base?
Glowing reviews and fan sites raise suspicions
that Hollywood is planting ready-made buzz on the Net.


- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Patrizia DiLucchio


July 16, 1999 | One of the hottest topics on the Net this summer is "The Blair Witch Project," a low-budget horror film that's generated more buzz than the chainsaw used in that Texas massacre. Before it even opened, the indie had inspired over 20 fan sites, a mailing list, a Web ring, a Usenet group -- and more than its fair share of glowing reports on the influential movie site Ain't It Cool News. But was all the excitement genuine?

"Internet marketing," notes Gordon Paddison, director of interactive marketing at New Line Cinema, "is the most inexpensive and efficient mode of marketing around. And it's available to those with limited resources. Online is all about word of mouth."

"'The Blair Witch Project' filmmakers are using their friends to generate their fan sites," says another industry executive point-blank. "That was an organized effort. What happened is that they tricked the press."

Filmmakers Daniel Myrick and Eduardo Sánchez declined to be interviewed for this story. But whether or not people involved with "The Blair Witch Project" have been seeding the Net with faux-amateurish fan sites or writing pseudonymous reviews of the movie, such practices seem to be increasingly popular in Hollywood. Many believe that deceptive cyberspace marketing is the movie industry's latest secret weapon in the campaign to take that opening weekend by storm.

A fan site for American Pie boasts an electronic counter labeled "Days UNIVERSAL Hasn't Shut Us Down" as well as a disclaimer that "I scammed some stuff of this movie off friends that work for a movie company in CA and posted some clips up on the net." OK. But wouldn't those purchase order numbers -- clearly visible on the purloined files -- give Universal a good idea of which employee had leaked it? And would a fan really create a scrolling credits area, playing up the film's writer, director and producers -- and pausing to add "In theaters July 9th"?

"You never quite know who the hand is -- the filmmaker, the studio. But I don't have any doubt that ["American Pie"] site was put up by somebody from Universal," says David Poland. Poland's insider column for TNT's Rough Cut, The Hot Button, frequently serves as a reality check for the Hollywood hype machine. "Can I substantiate that? No. And in fairness, when I asked, Universal denied any involvement."

The "Blair Witch Project" fan sites deploy similarly suspicious language. The creators of The Blair Witch Project Fanatic's Guide, for example, tell site visitors, "We're just very dedicated fans," and until recently offered suggestions on how other fans might help promote the movie: "Buy TBWP Stock at the Hollywood Stock Exchange! Rank TBWP at the Internet Movie Database! Rank TBWP at Ain't It Cool News!"

But the creators of the site, Abigail Marceluk and Eric Alan Ivins, seem to be more than average fans. They appeared in the Sci-Fi Channel special "Curse of the Blair Witch," and the Rough Cut site links them to the film's back story: "A bit of trivia: Abigail and Eric are the two anthropology students who discover the three film students' 'lost' footage."

Fan sites, of course, are one of those cyberspace metrics beloved by the traditional media, which uses them as a kind of compass to determine the sources of the pop culture Nile. Nearly two months before the film's release, for example, MTV News ran a story on the proliferation of "Blair Witch" fan sites -- thereby giving the film cachet with that all-important 13- to 25-year-old moviegoing demographic.

The big studios have been aware of this phenomenon for quite some time and are sometimes heavy-handed in their attempts to manipulate it. According to industry insiders, it is not uncommon at the time a movie project is announced for a studio to buy up every domain name that has the slightest connection to the project, use them to set up amateurish sites and then, when the official Internet marketing gets under way, "affiliate" with those fan sites.

"The more a film shows up on different places throughout the Net, the more traditional media decides to cover it," says Poland. "The Internet doesn't have that much of a direct promotional effect on getting people to see a movie, but when traditional media starts picking up on it, that's when a movie gets the buzz."

Harry Knowles, the self-styled film fanatic behind Ain't It Cool News, may have more to do with enticing filmmakers and producers into the gray area of anonymous self-promotion than anyone.

Knowles was a 25-year-old college dropout and dealer in movie memorabilia in 1997 when his movie review site broke ahead of the pack of other underground entertainment sites like Corona's Coming Attractions, Zentertainment Buzzstation and CyberSleaze.

His M.O.? Reviews of test screenings from anonymous moles who claimed to have infiltrated the impenetrable studio labyrinth. These reviews were coupled with message boards where other users could "Talk Back." Quentin Tarantino called him "the Wolf Blitzer of the Internet," and rumor had it that Hollywood studios circulated his photograph to make sure he didn't slip into any test screenings.

But those days are long gone. Today AICN is a full-time operation, using reports from 35 to 40 freelance movie spies, and Knowles, taking a cue from onetime mentor Matt Drudge, is reportedly trying to launch his own weekly TV show. When Premiere magazine named him to its power list of the top 100 Hollywood players last month, it raved, "His aint-it-cool-news.com Web site and its film-geek spy network have become the source of early test-screening reviews untainted by spin control."

Untainted by spin control? Not according to Poland, who views Knowles as spin central: "Studios know if you bring him on a set, you'll get good buzz out of him -- and that will translate into other media attention. Studios also send in negative things about their competitors' movies in order to torpedo them. Journalists who cover the film business look to sites like his for scoops."

Poland cites the case of "Iron Giant," an upcoming animated feature from Warner Brothers. The film has been written up on AICN 61 times, beginning back when it was in its earliest developmental stage as pre-production art. Gushed one recent anonymous reviewer, "It was one of the best movies I have seen all year. I am a 27 year old guy. This movie brought a tear to my eye ... I am a big supporter of any studio that wants to run the animation [gantlet] with those ****** at Disney."

When the Los Angeles Times wrote up "Iron Giant" in April, it made note of the movie's "hot Internet buzz."

"Warner Brothers knew they'd get positive stuff out of [Harry Knowles]," says Poland. "There were clearly people involved with the movie saying good things about it on AICN." Poland is appalled that the newspaper took what it found online at face value, treating it as honest and legitimate adoration. "When the L.A. Times goes into a Web site, gets an unverifiable review and says this is what people are saying about this movie -- that's scary."

Of course, not all the spin that movies get online is positive. In a recent interview, Wild Wild West director Barry Sonnenfeld fumed, "You can ruin a movie through anonymous reviews on the Internet. And don't for a minute think that studios themselves aren't anonymously writing good reviews for their own movies and bad reviews for other movies."

"Barry uses the test screening process to help tweak his films," explains Ira Rubenstein, vice-president of marketing at Columbia Tristar Interactive. "This is particularly critical for comedies. Now he can't, because people [who attended the test screening] are writing, 'It's awful, its special effects are bad, the music sucks, the timing's off.' Etc. Listen -- I find it difficult to watch films that aren't finished -- they're missing all sorts of subtle cues. And I'm in the industry. When a regular moviegoer sees a test screening, chances are he won't get it. And then if he goes off and writes about it in a way that ultimately hurts the finished movie, it undermines the whole process."

Poland says that the Net has changed the landscape so much that Hollywood execs are now talking of doing away with test screenings all together.

"Look at the monsters we've created," mused another industry executive, who asked that his name not be used. "People think they can co-opt Harry Knowles -- and sure, you can co-opt him for one film. But every time the dog turns around and bites you."

Knowles declined to be interviewed for this story. But word has it that he hadn't actually seen "The Blair Witch Project" when he first wrote this about it on AICN: "As for movies coming up at SUNDANCE the one to see it 'THE BLAIR WITCH PROJECT'!!! The most creepy ****in mockumentary made ... ever." Figuring AICN as the best way to get the word out to an obsessive fan base, Myrick and Sánchez had apparently slipped Knowles the blurb. In the next six months, the indie film was reviewed 12 more times -- and each review was more positive than the last.

At least some AICN frequent flyers suspect that one of "The Blair Witch Project" reviewers setting the buzz-generator on high was ... someone directly involved with the film. Whoever was doing it, the reviews were working. How else to account for the increasing number of rabid fans whose postings began, "I've seen a tape of 'The Blair Witch Project ...'"? Particularly when the film's distributor, Artisan Entertainment, was enforcing a strict no-tapes policy?

"We haven't created screeners for this film," says Artisan spokeswoman Jessica Rovello. "Piracy is a big issue."

John Pierson, the independent film guru who put up part of the seed money for the film, suspects that when the hype reaches a certain level, people start confabulating. "What happens in the more buzzy world is that people end up posting about a film that they haven't seen at all -- thousands and thousands are already on board talking about a movie that they haven't seen."

You couldn't ask for a better way to promote a movie.

And "Blair Witch" fans defend the marketing campaign. As Anthony Pryor-Brown puts it: "There's a significant difference between saying, 'You liked the movie? Tell your friends,' and [studios] specifically planting people to rave about the movie." Pryor-Brown is a 38-year-old technical writer from Portland, Ore., who faithfully visits AICN once a day.

"To the extent that Ed Sánchez and Dan Myrick have been encouraging people to spread the word about 'Blair Witch,' there is indeed a publicity campaign going on," he offers, "but I'm encouraged to see that it doesn't involve huge ads in the trades, massive TV campaigns or action figures at Taco Bell. Although I probably would get 'Blair Witch' action figures if they were available."

salon.com | July 16, 1999

[SAC]

...as I've been on quite a long vacation, I haven't had the time to look around this Forum - which I usually don't have at all due to other committments, although I try to keep up with things at the best of my ability.

Still, by a coincidence I found this thread about CIV-websites and the comments about them, and as being one of those webmasters pointed out I'd like to make the following statement - despite the fact that the thread itself is a bit "old"

I run the site Gothia which mainly is dedicated to MAXIS game SimCity, and along with Freeland we both can be compaired to "our communities" as Apyloton and CIV Fanatics are for the CIV-community. In August this year I decided to open a CIV-section as a result of my own interests in that game. I figured this would be a good way to "offer" some of my "own" improved graphics to the public, and at the same time prepare for the upcoming sequel CIV III.

As a webmaster of Gothia I do not claim to have a "big" CIV-site in any possible case. As mentioned earlier Gothia mainly dedicates its existence to MAXIS SimCity-series, but have the CIV-section included as of August this year. For obvious reasons that section needs a little more time to settle in the CIV-community, just as visitors need to be ensured that it's also active and will be updated on a regular basis.

Ironically I contacted both Apolyton and CIV Fanatics and suggested a link exchange - just to find out that none of these sites even bothered to reply. As being known myself as a webmaster who "take good care" of my visitors - no matter what their purpose are - I find this neglect by both Apyloton and CIV Fanatics quite disturbing. This is not the way we handle such issues within the SIM-community - at least not as far as my own experience goes. On the contrary - as being one of the largest SIM-sites I encourage new, or smaller, sites to have their link put up at Gothia. I often "highlight" these sites in order to encourage my visitors to have a look at them and hopefully bring them new visitors.

I'm not sure what possible excuses Apolyton and CIV Fanatics may have, but I do know that a thriving and a constructive community is best served with as many interesting fansites as possible. And in this matter the official gamedevelopers has an important responsibility - which I believe they also do take. By encouraging webmasters to "register" their CIV-fansites, they also secure this importance. And for that matter - if the official website wouldn't post a fansite list - who would offer the possibility to promote the CIV-community? Or is it Apolytons and CIV Fanatics meaning that their neglect of other websites in several ways are the best way to serve a community? No, growing "big" as many of our websites does eventually, doesn't mean one has to stop being humble.

Or am I missing something here?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by SAC
Ironically I contacted both Apolyton and CIV Fanatics and suggested a link exchange - just to find out that none of these sites even bothered to reply.

...

Or am I missing something here?

- go to the civ3 section
- click on links (it will take you to our civ3 links directory)
- tell me what you see on the first menu line, next to "home"

[Black Fluffy Lion]

Mark, please put my posts back, I have sent u an e-mail about this. Please reply even if the answer is no.

[SAC]

Originally posted by MarkG


- go to the civ3 section
- click on links (it will take you to our civ3 links directory)
- tell me what you see on the first menu line, next to "home"

....I think it goes without saying that the option you so ironically points out, also has been used. I might not have mentioned it precisly, but apart from sending Apolyton an e-mail about a possible link exchange, I also did use the "add a link" option.

However, as this was a time ago I've decided to settle with the link at the official website. It serves my needs as I believe most visitors will find the CIV-section at Gothia that way!

Still, the only thing you actually proved with your respons, is the confirmation about the statement made in my previous post. No need to continue this debate at all...

[dainbramaged13]

hey. I just wanted to say that I once made a civ site on homestead because I was interested in doing a web project and didn't have anything else i could do it about. It is possible that If i continued to improve it, it could have looked professional and I might have sent it to Firaxis. Although I didn't, I assure you there are many people who do. IN fact, I was surprised that there weren't more fansites. I guess the reason is because of the dominance of the main 2 (acs and civfanatics)

[SAC]

...could be a possible reason. The question about dominance has been discussed from time to time within the SIM-community - mainly as a result of sites shutting down due to the effects of dominating sites within the community.

...among other reasons, this is why I promote "smaller" and/or "newer" SIM-community sites at Gothia. Basically its my believe that more fansites often results in a greater flow of ideas, materials and such. Less sites effectively puts an end to that. And by looking within the CIV-community it's not that hard to understand in what way Apolyton and CIV Fanatics have effected with their dominance.

It doesn't benefit visitors in the long run. Perhaps, dainbramaged13, you should consider to re-open your CIV-site again...

[MarkG]

Originally posted by SAC
....I think it goes without saying that the option you so ironically points out, also has been used.

i fail to see how i was supposed to take that as granted.....

Still, the only thing you actually proved with your respons, is the confirmation about the statement made in my previous post.

perhaps you should look around a bit before judging us and posting things like this

I'm not sure what possible excuses Apolyton and CIV Fanatics may have, but I do know that a thriving and a constructive community is best served with as many interesting fansites as possible.
...
Or is it Apolytons and CIV Fanatics meaning that their neglect of other websites in several ways are the best way to serve a community?

cause if you did, you would really know if we care or not about other fan sites....

[civcop]

(sings) Oh Dannny boy, oh Danny boy...

Once again, Dan has killed with kindness and humor. You know, to be frank, if I were Dan I would have stopped visiting here some time ago. Goodness knows there are enough people already complaining about a game that hasn't even been released yet that it is a sure bet many of that group will search zealously for some flaw with the game once they do get their hands on it. Tecumseh ate crow on this (in French no less), but people being people, some will find something to gripe about--no matter how minor and will refuse to admit they were ever wrong in their complaints. When we've reached the point of conspiracy theories then it appears that the civilization of civvers has become uncivilized (or something like that). Those who frequent Apolyton and Civ Fanatics will amount to 1/100 of 1% of all Civ 3 sales. A conspiracy by Firaxis is hardly needed to sell this game.

[dainbramaged13]

Originally posted by SAC


It doesn't benefit visitors in the long run. Perhaps, dainbramaged13, you should consider to re-open your CIV-site again...

i dont know... it'd take a lot of updating - the last news item was "CTP2 is now OUT!"