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  • #31
    Moaning

    I've got a crazy idea. . .

    Why don't we all stop moaning about the possible bad points of Civ 3 and actuallty wait until it's released?

    Bewilderingly, the Apolyton forums are about 95% NEGATIVE about forthcoming Civ games. So here's a spot of advice: - if you don't like the Civ games or have a major issue about them: then DON'T BUY THEM.

    "I hope Civ III has 'this and that'". Fair enough: there are a lot of superb views expressed on this site, but also so much whinging! Instead of examining the news about Civ III and immediately focusing on possible bad points, why not wait for it (NO ONE FINDS THIS HARDER THAN I), before we judge pointlessly?


    Tod.MB
    Tod.MB

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    • #32
      Re: Moaning

      Originally posted by ToD.MB
      I've got a crazy idea. . .

      Why don't we all stop moaning about the possible bad points of Civ 3 and actuallty wait until it's released?

      Bewilderingly, the Apolyton forums are about 95% NEGATIVE about forthcoming Civ games. So here's a spot of advice: - if you don't like the Civ games or have a major issue about them: then DON'T BUY THEM.

      "I hope Civ III has 'this and that'". Fair enough: there are a lot of superb views expressed on this site, but also so much whinging! Instead of examining the news about Civ III and immediately focusing on possible bad points, why not wait for it (NO ONE FINDS THIS HARDER THAN I), before we judge pointlessly?


      Tod.MB
      Well said, well said. Let's wait for the civ3 to be released before we comment on it. I still say it will be a great game!
      'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
      G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"

      Comment

      • #33
        An odd post to level criticism of negativity at. I think we are just genuinely puzzled about how the ancient era is going to play out if we have 1-1-1 warriors, 2-1-1 archers and 1-1-2 chariots. It looks far more like a defenders game than Civ 2 where the attack stats were typically much higher than the defensive ones because the defender is expected to rely on terrain, fortification or city walls to improve their odds. A 4-1-2 chariot couldn't shift a 1-2-1 phalanx fortified behind a city wall. Now it looks like a 1-1-2 chariot won't be able to do much in the open either. If this trend holds tru through the ages then we are looking at a far more static game than previous versions. Culture may actually become the most effective offensive weapon!
        To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
        H.Poincaré

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        • #34
          An 'odd post' - the very cheek!

          My apologies for posting an 'odd post' in the eyes of our UK guardians, the Londoners: . . . .

          I would suggest that my good countryman (Grumbold of London) is looking too deeply into 'stats and facts', when he should really be waiting for the game itself and how it 'feels'. By God - isn't London stressfull enough without computer games adding to it?

          Still, Grumbold, I do take your point - I'm hoping that a combination of culture and military might pave the way to the domination of the globe. What do you think?



          MSB
          Tod.MB

          Comment

          • #35
            We can't prejudge 'feel' - although plenty has been said about looks - so exploring stats and facts is what we have left, and I don't find that stressful It beats staring at the TV and keeps the brain ticking over. I think I'm going to need it when Civ and Moo actually arrive.

            At the moment I think Firaxis have gone too far in toning down the units, but future weeks info updates may show this to be short lived. The talked about watering down of zones of control may make the whole thing more fluid. No-one wants to attack at 1-1 but it's almost impossible to stop someone moving past you so sooner or later you will have to.
            To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
            H.Poincaré

            Comment

            • #36
              in my opinion, a line of phalanxes would lose to a swarm of chariots in an open field.
              "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
              - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

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              • #37
                Unless we are talking about the heavy Scythian 4-horse chariots I would expect the chariots to skirmish with the phalanxes and inflict superior casualties (i.e. some vs almost none) but not be able to break the tight formation. For the light chariots that were used by most nations, charging the enemy would be suicide if they held their ground.
                To doubt everything or to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions; both dispense with the necessity of reflection.
                H.Poincaré

                Comment

                • #38
                  Re: Moaning

                  Originally posted by ToD.MB
                  Why don't we all stop moaning about the possible bad points of Civ 3 and actuallty wait until it's released?
                  And do what instead? Discuss for the millionth time whether the US is a Civ? Talk about that same old screen shot?

                  Look all we can do is begin discussing the game and voice our concerns. Likely these are the same concerns Firaxis had when they implemented them. And either they have figured out why these concerns are unjustified or balanced them. And if they haven't then the concerns are justified and are going to destroy the game.


                  Bewilderingly, the Apolyton forums are about 95% NEGATIVE about forthcoming Civ games. So here's a spot of advice: - if you don't like the Civ games or have a major issue about them: then DON'T BUY THEM.
                  Disagree. Read some of the lists. Maybe a little over half of the posts. But certainly not near all of the posts are negative.


                  Instead of examining the news about Civ III and immediately focusing on possible bad points, why not wait for it (NO ONE FINDS THIS HARDER THAN I), before we judge pointlessly?
                  It is not necessarily whinning saying you don't think something is going to work or express a fear of what a system is going to do to the game. Nor is saying that you disagree with Firaxis' decision.
                  About 24,000 people die every day from hunger or hunger-related causes. With a simple click daily at the Hunger Site you can provide food for those who need it.

                  Comment

                  • #39
                    It is not necessarily whinning saying you don't think something is going to work or express a fear of what a system is going to do to the game. Nor is saying that you disagree with Firaxis' decision.
                    If you had played the game, maybe not, but none of us has even seen the game yet. Since you have not played it and know next to nothing about it, it could definately be considered whining.

                    Comment

                    • #40
                      Since you have not played it and know next to nothing about it, it could definately be considered whining.
                      lol
                      Sabre2th...we all know way more than next to nothing about civ, and Jeff Morris admitted that civ3 was a conservative sequal...so why we can't know all of the smallest details we can certainly form a mostly correct overview of how the new features will work when we take the firaxis quotes, screenshots, and previews together as evidence...so we are giving firaxis constructive critisism based on insight to a game system that although it has been changed remains basically the same

                      i think if alot of people voice concerns about a certain feature, that these people are always just whiners but that they might have an actual point...and it would be in firaxis's best interest to see if there is any truth in the arguments people give and take that feedback and make the game better

                      alot of productive feedback is about what people don't like, hopefully civ3 will have lots of what we like and little of what we don't

                      Comment

                      • #41
                        Instead of examining the news about Civ III and immediately focusing on possible bad points, why not wait for it (NO ONE FINDS THIS HARDER THAN I), before we judge pointlessly?
                        Even if what you said is true why do you care so much? If you don't like the tone of this forum then leave it. Nobody is forcing you to read and post on this forum. Leave us who like the tone of this forum alone and go on with your own ways. Or you can conjure with the flow on this forum and continue to read and post hear. Don't come here and tell us to change, the choice is yours if you want to change or not.
                        However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

                        Comment

                        • #42
                          Re: Moaning

                          Originally posted by ToD.MB
                          Why don't we all stop moaning about the possible bad points of Civ 3 and actuallty wait until it's released?
                          Because its easier to rectify any potential (minor) design-mistake at this stages, then it is after the game has been released. I agree that much can be fixed due the great mod-flexibility of this game - but not all. And the more they can "get it right" from the very start, the better it is.

                          Its true that being a "Civ Fan" or "Civ veteran player" doesnt garantee that once ideas is feasible or good. God knows how many ridiculously unrealistic & unfeasible ideas that have ever been suggested here at Apolyton. Just read THE LIST (there is some great stuff here and there also, of course). Or 100+ simultaneous AI-civs/ 500+ tech-trees?

                          But the opposite is sadly also true: One cannot say; "Leave it to the pro's - they know what they doing". If it was that simple there wouldnt be so many badly designed & halfhearted full-price games available. As for "badly designed"; look at CTP - as for "halfhearted"; look at SC 3000. And there are many more, even worse examples out there.

                          And Civilization III is after all, not just any old game-upgrade.

                          Debating over fundamental game-concepts, like Settlers or PW/ Unit Workshop or not/ SMAC-style SE or not/ different combat-model or not, IS of course a total waste of time at this late stage of the Civ-3 development. All such fundamental game-mechanical design-parts is of course already irreversibly in place since long ago.
                          Debating over AI-, gameplay-, game-balance and minor game tweak/emphasize-issues however, is another thing. If we cant talk over that, what else can/should we talk about?

                          Comment

                          • #43
                            Oi

                            Whoa there TechWins, I'm not saying that I don't like the tone of this forum, only that I think that many of the posters do not realise the hardship of designing and coding a game (I don't myself - I'm in food retail, but have a friend who 'knows the business').

                            I read the forums because of the many interesting opinions voiced (yours and mine being examples) and feel that the forum is an excellent opportunity for different opinions to be exchanged. However, I do feel that the tone of many Apolyton threads is somewhat negative.

                            I'm not telling you to change - never do that, you never have to - I'm just saying that the threads are (to me) a little negative.

                            I think that Civ III will be a superb game, which addresses many concerns I used to have avout the previos incarnations - I'm looking forward to it, that's all.

                            Regards,

                            Tod.MB
                            Tod.MB

                            Comment

                            • #44
                              True Ralf

                              Yes, Ralf, I take your point, but whinging about the possible result of Civ III is counterproductive - it will be a superb game and moaning about it will just make it less good when it arrives. Firaxis have a tough job meeting the expectations of millions of people.

                              From the reviews I've seen, Civ III looks superb. Back in '91 I used to think about a Civilization that supportedf mutliplayer and that took account of nationality and culture. Also - I used to wonder about a diplomatic system that allowed you to trade anything. And now it's here!

                              Anyway, in a few month we can settle our differences in battle. Up for it?

                              Regards,

                              Tod.MB
                              Tod.MB

                              Comment

                              • #45
                                Whoa there TechWins
                                Don't you whoa me.

                                Sorry but I guess I got the wrong intentions from your original post. I thought you were intending well... just go like at my last post. There are some negative comments but for the most part this forum consists of constructive criticism, rare whining, discussing features in Civ3, discovering unknown facts about Civ3, questions about Civ3, and optimistic remarks about Civ3. Oh yeah and on the longer threads some sort of sidetrack. Possibly I could be too blind to see all this negativity or it could be just a matter of opinion on what negativity (the posts not term) is.
                                However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

                                Comment

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