Will the AI be able to grovel?

[Wojit]

Darned AI...

The most annoying thing the computer has ever done to me in CIV 2, is be a republic, start a revolution, declare war on me in the anarchy (Who is declaring war when there is no government?!?) despite my United Nations AND Great Wall, then become a democracy.

[Grim Legacy]

I think that in many instances in which the AI broke down in Civ2 the power scales were so out of balance that any reasonable strategy became impossible anyway.

And to quote the example of the lone rifleman attacking the all-powerful enemy: you could also interpret this as a heroic attempt to thwart the Evil Empire. A last act of resistance.

I for one would not like to have all my enemies grovelling at the end...some just need to act haughty so I can feel justified in bringing them the ultimate punishment...annihilation.

[TechWins]

"A last act of resistance", you have to be kidding me. One riflemen trying to take over a whole empire is not heroic, it's suicide. When the AI is at this point they should be sucking up (groveling) to you with full force. Which brings me to your last topic about you not wanting all your enemies to be groveling at the very end. You don't have to accept the groveling the AI presents you, you only have to be aware that the AI will try groveling to you in order to save it's ever dying empire. When a nation surrenders in war the opposition usually accepts this token. When this token isn't accepted there is usually some sort of diplomatic penalty. Meaning that if you don't accept the groveling from the AI there should be some type of diplomatic penalty, either people denying trade with you, breaking treaties on you, demoting alliances to peace treaties only, poor repuatation, etc...

The AI needs not to change govs. so often. They need to become a more stable empire rather than having many forced revolutions. In one game I played the Japanese changed their gov. over 20 times in a 100 year stretch (all by forced action). Why would this be neccesary?

[campmajor!]

Re: Darned AI...

Originally posted by Wojit
The most annoying thing the computer has ever done to me in CIV 2, is be a republic, start a revolution, declare war on me in the anarchy (Who is declaring war when there is no government?!?) despite my United Nations AND Great Wall, then become a democracy.

Hehe, I also used that strategy sometimes. Usually when I got sick with an other empire who indeed had United Nations or Great Wall (if you have UN, Great Wall has become obsolete) and would do all sorts of nasty things, like stealing tech, moving units in my territory, etc. But you cannot declare war on them, cuz you're a democracy. So, you turn over the gov and declare war on them.

Now why can't this be done? I can imagine such a situation, where a general does a coupe and puts the democratic gov aside and takes over and declares war on a hated enemy.

[TechWins]

Now why can't this be done?

Please name one historical case where a nation was in anarchy/revolution when they decided to start a war. Even if there were some events like that it still doesn't add fun to the game. You shouldn't be able to declare war when you're in anarchy. For some simple reasons, who is going to fight this war? Will it be your rabid citizens or your non-existing gov? How is this war going to be supported enconomically? By your small treasury that is losing money by the day? I could go on and on how a nation in anarchy can't declare war but I think you get the point.

[Grim Legacy]

Originally posted by TechWins
"A last act of resistance", you have to be kidding me. One riflemen trying to take over a whole empire is not heroic, it's suicide. When the AI is at this point they should be sucking up (groveling) to you with full force.

Which brings me to your last topic about you not wanting all your enemies to be groveling at the very end. You don't have to accept the groveling the AI presents you, you only have to be aware that the AI will try groveling to you in order to save it's ever dying empire. When a nation surrenders in war the opposition usually accepts this token. When this token isn't accepted there is usually some sort of diplomatic penalty. Meaning that if you don't accept the groveling from the AI there should be some type of diplomatic penalty, either people denying trade with you, breaking treaties on you, demoting alliances to peace treaties only, poor repuatation, etc...

You seem to adhere a very simplistic model about defeat. I stand by my view that grovelling is something that may happen occasionally, but not consistently, and certainly not all the time.

In history, there are very few instances in which one civ begged the other to spare them, and entered an everlasting alliance as compensation. Of course, civ's have been beaten, and many have turned into vassal states, or subjected provinces, but the crucial point is that this...
1) is not something that came about by begging for mercy in the face of extinction, and
2) never resulted in friendly relations or durable peace.

Instead, vassal states have a reputation of being unreliable and of a backstabbing nature.

Why is this so?

Because there is a simple factor involved: hatred. The warring nations are akin to mortal enemies. Even when one is completetly overpowered by the other, the people continue to put up resistance to the oppressor (see pretty much the whole recent history of Europe for an example of what I mean), no matter how futile.

The longer I think about this issue, the more I frown upon the notion of a default begging for mercy. As the Sardaukar warriors from a well-know strategy game would say: Death before dishonour!

[campmajor!]

Originally posted by TechWins

Please name one historical case where a nation was in anarchy/revolution when they decided to start a war.

I cannot recall any historical case. But that is not the point. I think there could have been such a case. Just because it isn't done, doesn't mean it couldn't be done...

Even if there were some events like that it still doesn't add fun to the game.

Well, one can argue about that. It is great fun being able to fight the irritating AI who is stealing my tech, founding cities near mine, sending troops in my territory! The will pay!

You shouldn't be able to declare war when you're in anarchy. For some simple reasons, who is going to fight this war? Will it be your rabid citizens or your non-existing gov?

Well, it will be your soldiers with whom you put the democratic gov aside!

How is this war going to be supported enconomically? By your small treasury that is losing money by the day?

Well, it is simple to answer this one: by raising high taxes!

I could go on and on how a nation in anarchy can't declare war but I think you get the point.

Have you ever seen countries which were really in anarchy? In one day a gov can be taken over and a militaristic regime can be installed, so would you call a period of 4 years of anarchy realistic?

But anyway, I get your point. It shouldn't be as easy as it is in civ2 to change govs and returning to the same one.