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  • #1

    Firaxis i'm M.A.D.

    now that i hopefully got your attention...

    ok what about nuclear weapons and Mutually Assured Destruction?

    please please please include Mutually Assured Destruction...it is the best feature ever!

    M.A.D. means nukes hit simultaneously so a nuclear first strike isn't possible

    and you gotta make nukes more powerful!

    plus a little radiation and nuclear winter would be nice

    additionally i need those features for a scenario i'm going to make...well i at least need the M.A.D. and powerful nukes

    so dan, what's the word...have you destroyed the world yet?
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    • #3
      I agree with Korn on this one. Nukes need to be more powerful and severer diplomatic consequences need to happen if a player insists on using nukes. M.A.D. is great, for it prevents a nuclear power from wiping an opponent off the map w/o retaliation (albeit, one must have enough nukes and troops at the ready).
      "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk." -Tuco Benedicto Juan Ramirez
      "I hate my hat, I hate my clubs, I hate my life" -Marcia
      "I think it would be a good idea."
      - Mahatma Ghandi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization

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      • #4
        I hope that MAD is included in Civ3, it'd be more fun and realistic than just moving a nuke unit one time at a time. And it'd be not hard to implement, just have it that you can build nukes but you can't move them like a unit, instead pinpoint a target for it to launch at. To wage a nuclear war just press the red button, the other side will counter-attack in the same turn with the military infastucture that they have built up. Other items that can be included in this is SDI developement and arms treaties.
        Learn the mistakes of yesterday to prevent the ones of tomorrow...

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        • #5
          If this is left out of the game it will be very dissapointing for me. I'd imagine the game will still be very good it's just that I feel and many others feel that the game would be even better with some form of MAD. You don't have to do all the little extras like radiation, just at least implement MAD. So what is the haps on MAD Dan or Jeff or any member of Firaxis?
          However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

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          • #6
            Dan is up and he seems talkative

            so hopefully he'll answer...plus it sounds like he is a one man beta team

            but dan...got M.A.D?

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            • #7
              *bump*
              Learn the mistakes of yesterday to prevent the ones of tomorrow...

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              • #8
                Originally posted by korn469
                ok what about nuclear weapons and Mutually Assured Destruction?
                They can add the quintessential idea of it, without turning it into a game within a game. And Firaxis; please, if you read this: Keep those SDI-defences so that one can bypass that controversial MAD-philosophy nonsense, if one dont believe in it.

                Why not make the effectivness of SDI-defences weighted? 100% effective if you dont have any nucks, then gradually less effective the more nucks you have within your borders. Or something similar.

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                • #9
                  I think there should be major revision of the nuke's role in Civ III. The AI is too trigger-happy with nukes, ignoring the political or automatic response (M.A.D.) that would prevent such a thing in the real world. In Civ II nukes were used too conventionally, just like any other weapon.

                  PS - I offer these two Webster's Dictionary definitions of conventional as an ironic commentary on this discussion which supports my point.

                  3 a) depending on or conforming to formal or accepted standards or rules rather than nature; not natural, original, or spontaneous [conventional behavior] b) not unusual or extreme; ordinary

                  5 nonnuclear [conventional weapons]

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                  • #10
                    Why not make the effectivness of SDI-defences weighted? 100% effective if you dont have any nucks, then gradually less effective the more nucks you have within your borders. Or something similar.
                    Instead of doing that SDI Defence should be very far down along the tech tree. No matter what route you take SDI should be the last thing you could discover. The SDI should be 100% effective because gameplay could get seriously messed up with too many nukes becoming effective. The SDI defence would most likely be discovered about 40 years after MAD became enabled (with the first discoverery of nuclear weapons). MAD would be however Firaxis wants to implement, whatever idea they found most fitting for the game. After about 40 years of MAD preventing nuclear weapons being used somewhat to none most civs would be discovering SDI defence. This would not disable MAD but would make it less of a resolvement in stopping nuclear warfare with SDI defences becoming available. SDI defences would become the number one way in stopping nuclear warfare and essentialy stopping nuclear warfare all togehter.
                    However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ralf
                      Why not make the effectivness of SDI-defences weighted? 100% effective if you dont have any nucks, then gradually less effective the more nucks you have within your borders. Or something similar.
                      I don't really see the sense in that even though I don't much like the use of nukes, but it gave me another thought. I read in some review of Civ3 last night that units could be combined into armies of greater force as long as there were at least four cities for every army created. What if you created armies of missiles?

                      The SDI defense President Bush has been promoting doesn't actually work, but if it did, it would quickly get overwhelmed by multiple targets. Though that is physical interceptors, and in Civ2 lasers were the prerequisite and they could be much faster.

                      I suggest that there be a sort of interim defense before the lasers were perfected that would more accurately model the likely development of such systems. For example, after Rocketry, you would have a 75% chance of knocking out the fist missile no matter what for everywhere in your territory, and more if a SAM missile battery was built in the city, but it would drop to maybe 50% trying to stop two at a time, and ten would be hopeless. Sending out 'armies' of missiles would stack(excuse the pun) the odds in your favor.

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                      • #12
                        I read in some review of Civ3 last night that units could be combined into armies of greater force as long as there were at least four cities for every army created. What if you created armies of missiles?
                        This is called stacking armies and it isn't neccesarily some greater force. When attacking with a stacked army the most fitted unit to attack (determined by health and attacking capabilities) will attack first then the next most fitted then so on. When defending the most fitted unit to defend (determined by defending and health capabilities) will defend first then the next most fitted then so on. A long time ago I saw somewhere that you can now do retreating, I just thought I would mention that.

                        The SDI defense President Bush has been promoting doesn't actually work, but if it did,
                        I believe there has now been four tries done, the last one being in late July. The last one was effective. It's said that the technology to actually do it is there it's now just a matter of engineering.

                        Sending out 'armies' of missiles would stack(excuse the pun) the odds in your favor
                        I do like this idea if it could be implemented correctly. What I say by correctly is that there is a way no matter how many nuclear missles are being dropped on you you will still have 100% capability. Meaning that if you have to have ten SDIs to stop ten nukes then so be it. There has to be a way to stop nuclear warfare 100%! If there isn't the gameplay could become very boring being nuked all the time.
                        However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TechWins
                          Instead of doing that SDI Defence should be very far down along the tech tree. No matter what route you take SDI should be the last thing you could discover.
                          Well, if its literally "the last thing you could discover" theres no point in building those SDI:s because the game is practically over anyway. The laser-tech wich allowed SDI-defences in Civ-2 (and the laser-tech is confirmed in Civ-3 as well - I have seen that in a E3-video) was pretty well positioned in the Civ-2 tech-tree; third from end-tech. Similar position in Civ-3 tech-tree, I trust.

                          The SDI should be 100% effective because gameplay could get seriously messed up with too many nukes becoming effective.
                          Agree. 100% protection should be possible - weighted or not.

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                          • #14
                            Well, if its literally "the last thing you could discover" theres no point in building those SDI:s because the game is practically over anyway.
                            Well, it all just depends. Sometimes you could have over 200 years left with this discovery and other times you might beat the game before you even get to this discovery. Maybe you're right the SDI should be placed in the order that it was in in Civ2.

                            I'm glad you agree that SDI's do need to be 100% effective.
                            However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

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                            • #15
                              Whaaat? Powerful nukes?!

                              Nuclear warfare is for newbies only. Add to that the annoyingly trigger-happy, cheating AI, and I disprove of the wish for stronger nukes.

                              Also, the effects of pollution are going to be very much present in Civ3...rendering the mess a nuke makes even bigger already.

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