The New REPUBLIC

[rah]

After a quick glance at the Civ III tech tree, a thought occurred to me. (I know, Dangerous)

Monarchy now had 4 pre-reqs. Ceremonial B, Warrior Code, Mysticism and Poly. (one more than before) Republic also has 4 pre-reqs. Alpha, writing, code of laws, philosophy.

We also have heard that unit support will now be at the national level and based on gold not shields.

Now let's assume (big, but lacking anything to the contrary) that everything else is about the same. (except for a few of my guesses, of course)

I predict that monarchy will go the way of the dinosaur and no longer be the primary goal in most games.

Why?

The goal is still to get out of despotism as quickly as possible to get the extra food/shields for growth. (settler spitting) The faster you get to pop 3 the faster that settler can be popped (or wltkds if they're still included). Without the shield support penalty associated with REP/DEM The Republic is going to look a heck of a lot more attractive. And the extra trade bonuses associated with Republic will probably make up for the increased gold needed for unit support (especially with reduced corruption). Granted you still would have no martial law, but I have the sneaking suspicion that Like the CTP series, while it will be less than Monarchy, there will still be some martial law component. (and even if there isn't, there are other ways to solve the happiness problem. And if the unit support is handled at the national level, how they address the "unit out of city" for happiness purposes will have to be modified from the current setup. (and even if they don't, you'd still get one free per city so exploring would not be overly hindered)

What do you of you think. Have they maybe not considered this aspect of game balance?

RAH

[KrazyHorse]

I think that Republic was very weak for expansionary civs (which almost all are at the time you discover it), so a change for the stronger could be helpful, though not too much of one. Unhappiness should be a real killer; almost all the republics through history have been extremely small (Greek city-states, Dutch, early Rome, etc).

[splangy]

monarchy will have 3 free units, and martial, rep will have 0 free units no martial. this is what i beleive, they WILL not make a super govement that early.

[rah]

The cost of support won't be shields, it will be national treasury. (based on everything I've read) so the extra trade should make up the difference.

And I'm not saying a super government, I'm just saying that it will be better than it is now, and that with the same number of pre-reqs as monarchy, it will be one heck of a lot more attractive.

RAH

And maybe they haven't figured out how the changes are going to affect it yet.

[loinburger]

A relatively minor point is that perhaps the prereqs for Monarchy are more useful than the prereqs for Republic, and that this is supposed to provide the play balance.

[Ribannah]

My guess is that they have cancelled the We Love days.
At least I hope they have. I have never understood where all these new
citizens were supposed to come from.

[Inverse Icarus]

well it's simple, apply it to modern days.

whenevrer things are going swimmingly, and people have more luxuries (cars etc), they get happier.

and when they have more money and extras, they have bigger families (baby booms).

and each turn is 20 years early game, or 5 mid game. 1 year is a bit of a stretch, 10,000 people being born.

[Inverse Icarus]

it is really cheap though...

just throw on 80% luxuries for like 10 turns and carefully manage ure cities, making unhappies entertainers, and all ure cities are 10 sizes larger!

(unless they starve)

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by splangy
monarchy will have 3 free units, and martial, rep will have 0 free units no martial. this is what i beleive, they WILL not make a super govement that early.

put simply, but that is exactly the point.. no martial law is a big disadvantage from republic in comparison to monarchy...

[rah]

But will the advantages outweigh that. Up to now the biggest discouragement has been the extra pre-reqs and the shield support. There are ways around the happiness. (lord knows it doesn't present a problem now in MP games)

technophile
Yes, the monarchy pre-reqs are more war related. But if you can get to rep quick, researching the others shouldn't present a problem at the increased rates. But you're going to have to research writing at some point anyway. (good point though, I considered that but since most of them are base techs that you're going to need eventually, I didn't put as much importance to it) That's why we post this stuff though, to get the opinions of likewise open minded people.

RAH

[Bird]

rah, if units cost money instead of shields and the first 3 units remain free under monarchy, there will still be a significant hardship in going republic early. Between having to keep luxuries higher (usually 0% in monarchy) and taxes higher (to pay for the units), there should certainly be a reduction in science capabilities. Either that or you wouldn't have any gold to rushbuild anything, particularly the infrastructure that you really need to make republic work well. It is possible that early Republic will be even less attractive in Civ III, although more quickly attainable.

[rah]

Bird, maybe, that's what I'm trying to get a feel for. Many games have unit support costs for troops, and the way they're set, it keeps you from having a large army, but a medium size one has never been a problem. The increased trade arrows over monarchy may make up the diff. And on the luxury issue, Think about a modified ICS strat, your cities will be small so once you have a temple built, that should minimize what you need for luxuries. I don't know. But my point is, minor tweeks, (like changing small things in the tech tree, and the move to national gold support for units) could make a major difference. And since there is no public beta test, some of those things could be overlooked.

Some people are very successful going straight to rep instead of monarchy. It wouldn't take much modifications to make it look even more attractive.

RAH
My personal belief is that with possible stacks on the board, more units are going to be needed to defend.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by rah
That's why we post this stuff though, to get the opinions of likewise open minded people.

I am offended that you consider me "open minded."

On a tiny world the order of the initial prereqs would probably make a tremendous difference in the game, but in almost any other situation I agree that the differences in prereqs does not provide sufficient play balancing (unless for some reason Writing/Philosophy/whatever is made prohibitively expensive to research...)

Bird: The percentage of trade that is dedicated to science would certainly be reduced by switching to Republic for the very reasons that you mention, but the total amount of trade combined with the increased population growth would most likely make up for this (and likely lead to an increased Science output from Republic immediately or within a few turns of making the switch).

Ribannah: The population mechanics for Civ has always been screwy; population growth is exponential or logistical, not linear. Compared to that reality tweak, "we love" days are relatively minor.

[Bird]

rah, you are of course correct, the bottom line is we don't know and likely won't know until the game comes out. Anything's possible.

Sort of reminds me of the debates on sports radio about whether this trade or that trade was a good one. Only time will tell......

Looking forward to next season, though.

techno: it just depends on how much units cost. You might be right, but who knows (see above).

[rah]

technophile,
Well since I'm really only interested in MP and we usually play on small worlds, your issues is very relevant. But depending on how fast you could backfill the war techs. (and all you really need is wheel for an offensive pop to defend with) maybe you could do it quick enough before you're overwelmed.

Bird,
(Lou Brock)

See what happens when the game isn't out. We still find a way to discuss strats without enough knowledge. And Jeff responded to the city on mountain comment I made. I'd appreciate any additional feeds of info here