The Pikeman Problem

[Alex 14]

Pikemen should be slightly modified.

Side Note: New things should be avalible with the Fuedalism Advance.

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Re: The Pikeman Problem

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
It always made border cities more vulnerable to attack and is the main reason I will not bother to build this generally overrated Wonder.

It's good for upgrading your phalanxes to musketters

[Sabre2th]

Re: Re: The Pikeman Problem

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Against non-mounted units Pikemen and Phalanx are equal in all respects.

True.

overrated Wonder. The main advantage was that you could disband units and get more shields in return than they did cost in producing.

I disagree. Leo's Workshop could save you a lot of building time, especially if you have a large military.

[Jonny]

Pikemen are just fine the way they are. They are great for defending against those pesky elephants until you get musketeers. I say leave them alone.

Also, Leonardo's Workshop is a great wonder. By the time it expires, your phalanxes, pikeman, and other ancient infantry become riflemen. Your knights become cavalry, your catapults become artillery, and your settlers become engineers. How could you dislike it?

[Rommel393]

I personally rarely used the pikeman. Although, several times I have put them to very effective use against mainly cavalry enemies. Normally, I just use musketeers, but I think its all a matter of personal preference.

[fittstim]

Re: Re: The Pikeman Problem

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
I always was angry when Leonardo changed my bold veteran Pikemen to silly non-veteran Musketeers. It always made border cities more vulnerable to attack and is the main reason I will not bother to build this generally overrated Wonder.

I disagree. A veteran pikeman (1.5a/3d) is surely worse than a non-vet musketeer (3a/3d) against everything except the horseman and/or chariot. BUT...the point is that a musketeer in a city will always beat a horseman and almost always beat a chariot. And through this combat, there is a good chance that the musketeer becomes a veteran, thus becoming (4.5a/4.5d).

AND the missing ingredient here is that sometimes you actually want to attack from your city. How many times has that lone pikeman been killed trying to attack a catapult or canon that just plopped itself down next to your city (or any other unit that used it's moves to position itself next to the city). A musketeer will have no trouble dispatching that lame threat.

[Kropotkin]

I think that there's more or less useless units in civ2.

Chariot: Sure, nice but you'll have elephants after a short while.

Horseman: One for scouting early on is nice but...

Frigate: Almost forgot what those look like (would have if the enemies didn't build them once and a while).

Cannon: A nice unit between the Cavalry and the Tanks but I hardly builds more than a handful before mobile Warfare.

[Buck Birdseed]

The Phalanx will probably be the Greek special unit with the Spearman being its standard replacement. I'm guessing. And essentially front-line infantry of the pikeman type will be more useful here due to the addition of Armies.

[Inverse Icarus]

maybe its just me, but 2 cannons and a riflemen in a caravel is a standard attack force for me mid game.

the units i find useless in civ 2 were the Frigates / Galleons.

i just had ironclads and transports before i work on magnetism.

another useless unit, the eelephant.

when u get polythesim, monotheism is the next step... for me anyway.

[loinburger]

Historically, pikemen were not immediately phased out by musketeers. The development of musketeers caused the pike square to be replaced by a combined army of pikemen and musketeers; the pikemen would stand in front of the musketeers in order to slow down any horsemen or foot soldiers who managed to avoid being gunned down by muskets. It wasn't until the musketeers were able to put bayonets on their guns that the pikemen were phased out.

In Civ terms, non-vet musketeers would do 3/3 while non-vet pikemen would do 1/2, double against Move 2 (upping it to 1/4). Musketeers would be better all-around, pikemen would be better against horses/chariots/etc until the Rifleman. Easy enough to change in the game files (although Leo's still gets rid of the pikemen), and suddenly pikemen are a non-useless unit (until riflemen, of course).

Point is, "useless" units should still be included. They make the game easier to customize (I'd rather change a text file than have to make my own sprites), and they also allow for different styles of gameplay (i.e. the "skip feudalism" style versus the "do not skip feudalism" style).

[kittenOFchaos]

Those who consider the frigate useless are fools...plain and simple.

Those that don´t use pikemen...oh dear is what I´d say unless they eschew defensive units for attack units that attack vs enemies at the gate (as it were).

The frigate is VERY powerful as it can appear LONG BEFORE gunpowder and WILL crush pikies and phalanx unless the city is on hills (on a river or forest the frigate will suffer, BUT win...especially if vetted with the lighthouse.)

Quite simply those that ignore the frigate, ignore a most devastating unit in most games.

[KrazyHorse]

I agree. I love frigates for their fighting/transport ability too. If I'm feeling aggressive, Magnetism spells the end of any enemy coastal cities.

[Sabre2th]

Not really kitten. The ironclad, which is quite a bit stronger than the frigate, is available at right about the same time. The only advantage a frigate has is its ability to carry units, which the galleon can do better.

Sidenote: Gunpowder actually comes before magnetism in the tech tree.

[Recurve]

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Those who consider the frigate useless are fools...plain and simple.

Whenever I launch a frigate it's immediately surrounded by enemy ironclads (why is that)?! Anyway, I find pikemen very effective against diplomats, caravans and explorers.

[TechWins]

I'll tell you how useful I find pikeman, I have never even built one. I think this will all change with the fact that UberKrux pointed out, "IN ORDER TO ADVANCE TO THE NEXT AGE YOU MUST COMPLETE MOST OF THE CURRENT AGE'S TECH TREE.". Although, this will take out my whole strategy of tech finding, I think it will add more fun to the game. I actually find many units in Civ2 useless for me but that will all change with Civ3.