I think Japon should be included.

[kolpo]

Japon is a very ancient civilization, with it's own culture, history and that has had in many time areas much influence in it's region.

As special unit am I against a kamikazee plane because that is just one unit of a shorth dark despotistic time in Japon. Most of the time was Japon completely different and now are they one of the biggest pacifists on earth(just look to the size of there army in comparision with there economic power).

I suggest instead one of the types of ships(sorry don't know there names) they used in the Russian-Japon war. This was the first time that a non-european civilization completely beated a big European one(at that times was Russia a part of European culture).

But I have an even much better argument to include Japon(for Firaxis): It's a very big market for computer games! They have some national pride(like all countries) so civ3 will sell there better if Japon is included. More $, you hear me Firaxis? Just look to the succes of the movie "Pearl Habor" in Japon and you can see that Japon history(if Japon is included in civ3) sells well.

Btw, no I don't live in Japon or Asia. I just think that such an important and ancient culture and nation should be included.

[Provost Harrison]

Japan should be included, it is certainly a historically important civilisation with a very distinct history and culture.

And don't mention that film 'Pearl Harbour'. A total waste of space

Oh, and Firaxis don't care about the money, they do it for the love of the games. They would all gladly live in cardboard boxes and wear sacks as long as they could program their computer games

[Inverse Icarus]

i disagree.

japAn doesn't HAVE to be included at all IMHO.

the japanese were, for a lot of time, isolated, either by geography, or jingoistic ethnocentricism.

can anyone think of a major international event that included Japan pre-1900 ?

i also believe the Americans shouldn't be in the game. i have thought it through, and Americans aren't a civ. we were formed in 1776, when we declared independence and started the revolutionary war, we werent running around with sticks and stones, on chariots or elephants, we were nearing the industrial era.

but hey the americans are in civ. why bother *****ing now.

[Dida]

Japan should not be includeded. It has very short history, (ancient compare to the US), it was still in the Dark Age up till Tang Dynasty. Most Japan's culture were just chinese-clone.

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

Well, Japan (originally pronounced Japon, I'm almost sure) is certainly a civilisation with great history - not all civs have to be "on da map" to be valid. The special unit should prob. be the Samurai, a kickass (attack 10, both melee and ranged ) unit from just before the medival time right up to the middle of the Industrial Revolution.
The Americans? Well, they certainly aren't the greatest Caliber civ, but their place in the 20th Century history and in the market earn them the right from here to Andromeda and back again. Or something.

[Mahdimael]

Well, if you really want to only include civs that were around from 4/3000 BC, you'll be sorely disappointed. They Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Native Americans, Babylonians, Indians and Chinese may be the only civs in that case.

I think Civ tries to include civs that have either arisen to greatness, who have a cultural singularity or who have good historical relevance. Spain should be included, as should the Vikings. I think the Japanese should be included for the single reason of their culture, which is distinct from other Asian nations

[Colon™]

”can anyone think of a major international event that included Japan pre-1900 ?”

Well, what would a “major international event” constitute according to you?
Several big events I can think of is thwarting two Mongolian invasion attempts in the 13th century (with some help of nature), sending a large force to Korea in order to invade China in late 16th century and defeating the Chinese in 1894, thereby gaining control over Korea and demonstrating how weak China really was.

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by Mahdimael
Well, if you really want to only include civs that were around from 4/3000 BC, you'll be sorely disappointed. They Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Native Americans, Babylonians, Indians and Chinese may be the only civs in that case.

Greek civilization started with the Minoan culture about 2000 BC. And Rome was built about 700 BC (according to legend). The Babylonians were originally Akkadians who invaded the Sumerians about 1800 BC (or something like that). So about 4000 BC we have at most Sumer, Egypt and perhaps some "Indo-European" civ.

But... it's just a game...

[death_head]

I believe America should be in the game, as they have become the most influential country in the world.

I also believe that Japan is an American franchise.

Thus, they should both be in.

Yes, I have posted these thoughts before, but now they are together, and thus more understandable.

[SerapisIV]

The best arguement for a Japanese civ is the game market idea. Otherwise, having Japan as a civ makes as much sense as Germany with Hitler civ. At least Germany was an international player before the the late 1800s. Japan pretty much voluntarily isolated itself. People tried to get in (Mongols) but didn't succeed and they had little interest in expanding their influence.

[TechWins]

Well, if you really want to only include civs that were around from 4/3000 BC, you'll be sorely disappointed. They Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Native Americans, Babylonians, Indians and Chinese may be the only civs in that case.

Actually the ancient Egyptian empire didn't really begin until 2686. The 'Old Kingdom' kingdom lasted from 2686-2181 bc, the "Middle Kingdom' lasted drom 1991-1786 bc, and the 'New Kingdom' lasted from 1554-1070 bc.

I do think that Japan should be included as a civ. They have been a civ for a very long time and have a very unique Asian culture. Japan has basically their very own religion, Shintoism. I say this because a large part of the pop. believes in Shintoism and Shintoism has most of it's followers are Japanesse. Not many other civs now can say that they have their own religion. That is something that does show that Japan should be a civ in Civ3. Japan has very good capitalist enconomy (set up by US after WW2). The Navy is fairly good sized. They have had a large military in some points in history. They've been included in many modern day affairs. Have a great rivalry with many Asian nations (China, Korea, etc...). Japan is has been able to be a nation even with the fact that they are on a very small island (like England). Did have many scuffles with China in history. Had some great battles with Khan. I think all these reasons support why Japan should be in Civ3 and with these reasons being taken into consideration Japan might very well be a civ in Civ3.

I think Japan's specific unit should be a samurai. I don't believe that it should be this powerful though "a kickass (attack 10, both melee and ranged ) unit". That would be just as powerful as an armor from Civ2. Maybe 5 attack, 1 def, 2 move (Civ2 Knight- 4 att, 2 def, 2 move). The knight is there just to give you an idea of how power ful the samurai unit would be.

Side Note:
I happen to think to balance the specific units they shouldn't be much powerful than other regular units of their time. Example- American F15- (I think that is their specific unit) 15 att, 5 def, 14 move & a regular, Civ2 stealth bomber- 14 att, 5 def, 12 move. So my point is that to make civ-specific units be balanced with the game they shouldn't be too much more powerful than a unit (same premise though- land to land, air to air, naval to naval) of their time.

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

I was joking about the 10/10 and all... But hey, a Jap officer DID defeat Europe's best fencer, and Samurai bows were known to sink ships (!!!)
Just a piece of trivia: The Japanese measured the strength of bows by how many strong men are needed to put the string... There were 6, 12, 16 bows, and maybe even more. The Japanese art of using the bow (the name of which escapes me), is closely linked with Zen, a meditative sect of Buddhism that evolved mostly in Japan. Those arts could (and can) give the Warrior what seems to be superhuman strength (although it is based on the most efficient utilisation of muscles blah blah and is quite above normal human strength). I just hope that some REAL expert doesen't show up...
Also, Japanese steel is real sharp and can cut through armor quite easily. I believe that the samurai should be stronget than the Knight - maybe (I prefer the CTP system, although it has been so much since I played that i don't remember it very well) 6 melee, 5 ranged, 2 defence(because their attacks are so decisive they didn't invest too much in defence), 2 move with perhaps a modified "explorer" bonus - all tiles 1. They were extremely mobile, you know. Infantry is very mobile and they're the best pre-gunpowder infantry in the world and prob. could defeat ancient gunpowder units too. Look at how martial artists kick armed ass today, and add total determination and discipline, a deadly katana and a really, really big bow. Now take a group of those, put a brilliant tactician there and see what happens.

[TechWins]

I was joking about the 10/10 and all...

Of course it was a joke... I was just using your statement as a launching ground to show how I think a civ-specifics strengths should be determined.

prob. could defeat ancient gunpowder units too

Depends on the situation of the two units (i.e. distance, startled, etc...).

[Dida]

You people really need to straighten up you knowledge about Japan. Shintoism is not pure Japanese religion, its central idea was Japanese legand combined with Taoism from China. Zen Buddhism did not started in Japan even though it bares a Japanese name. It was started in China during the 6th century. Japan basically has no culture of its own. Even its writting is borrowed from China. During the Tang Dynasty, Japan sends thousands of students to Tang to learn from the more advanced civilization. They brought back not only the literature, but also the religion, the way of life and pholishophy.

[TechWins]

Shintoism is not pure Japanese religion

Yeah, I know it isn't but it still is primarliy a Japanesse religion. The religion is practiced by many Japanesse.

Japan basically has no culture of its own

Japan is diffently a seperate culture than that of the Chinesse.