I think Japon should be included.

[Dida]

Japanese culture can only be considered a branch of Chinese culture.

[DarkCloud]

Originally posted by UberKruX
i disagree.

japAn doesn't HAVE to be included at all IMHO.

the japanese were, for a lot of time, isolated, either by geography, or jingoistic ethnocentricism.

can anyone think of a major international event that included Japan pre-1900 ?

Japan was nearly invaded by Mongolia several times (The Khan's boats were sunk in storms).

UberKrux... can you name any thing the US did of importance (other than 1812 and 1776) of international significance before 1900... We are ignoring the civil war because you seem to have ignored Japan's civil wars.

As far as I can see the only international incident was the French and Indian war.

Japan has just as much right as America to be included... Anyways Japan is a large market for computer game manufactuers, so of course they will be included!

an offshoot of Chinese culture

Japan colonized Korea and adopted their pictographic styles for a type of writing. They are not Chinese in any way.

If you must, you could possibly relate them to the Indians in North America.

Their culture is most certainly their own.

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

Zen Buddhism did not started in Japan even though it bares a Japanese name. It was started in China during the 6th century

That is innacurate, and that is why I used the word 'mostly'. The roots of Zen are indeed in China, or rather in India where one of the original streams of Buddhism was similiar to Zen. But only when it arrived to Japan and evolved there it really became distinguished.

Depends on the situation of the two units (i.e. distance, startled, etc...).

Yes, you are right. Historically, the east-Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) were superior to the west in terms of tactical and strategical knowledge so I wouldn't worry for them greatly. Anyway, that's why there are terrain modifications and random factors in Civ...

[Urban Ranger]

DarkCloud,

"Japan colonized Korea and adopted their pictographic styles for a type of writing. They are not Chinese in any way."

This is incorrect. Both Japan and Korea adopted the Chinese writing for their own use. Even in today's Japanese you can still find many Chinese characters known as Kanji. IIRC after the Minji Restoration the Japanese devised their own phoetic system known as Kana. The Koreans developed their own alphabets even later.


Mark_Lipovrovskiy,

"The roots of Zen are indeed in China, or rather in India where one of the original streams of Buddhism was similiar to Zen. But only when it arrived to Japan and evolved there it really became distinguished."

This is also incorrect. Zen is the original Buddhism. The famous Shaolin Temple is a Zen Buddhism temple.


Dida,

"Japanese culture can only be considered a branch of Chinese culture."

This seems to be unduly harsh. While originally the Japanese took a lot of the Tang culture home they did add a lot of their own unique characteristics. For example they have things such as Sumo wrestlers, Bushido, etc. The Japanese as a group respects traditions greatly. A lot of their tradecrafts, etc. are rooted deeply in their own traditions.

[campmajor!]

Is there any point in discussing what civ should or should not be included in civ3? Firaxis will choose and if some mod-maker thinks a certain civ should be included as well, he'll add it via a mod!

And drop it at Apolyton of course!!

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

Ranger: Zen is very similiar to a Buddhist stream called Theravada, which is probably most similiar to what Gautama himself taught. I would not call it the "original" buddhism since the Mahayana sects sprang so quickly after Gautama died. Meditative Buddhism existed before Zen, but Zen is a distinct sect and so different from mainstream Buddhism that in fact it is considered almost a seperate religion by some.
Campmajor!: Yeah, but just about every discussion here is lacking in pointhood. It's still fun. That's the reason I visit the forum... Mostly out of my love for a good discussion in History than out of my love to Civ.

[DrFell]

If Japan shouldn't be included becuase they don't have a completely distinctive culture, one that has borrowed heavily from Chinese culture, why don't we just take out all the European civs and put in the Greeks and Germans. After all, most European cultures could be considered mere offshoots of Greek/Germanic cultures.

[kolpo]

"pre Zen" orginated in India but was not really big there. Later migrated it to China, there changed it over time and was adapted to Chinese culture, they call this tradition Chan. Chan migrated to Japan, it changed there over time, this tradition is called zen.

In India means pre zen quite nothing anymore, in China has it some influence on Tibet and the Mongolian provinces(but even they are mainly influence buy other Buddistic schools) but other then that is it's influence gone. In Japan had and has it still a very big influence on the japan culture. This culuture is in fact for a big part a zen culture.

Discipline, controling ones body, controling ones emotions and being not selfcentered(but more on company they work for, nation,family...) are a big part of the Japan culture and zen is one of the big reasons they are like that.

But back to the subject: I would like Japan to be include because they are original. Not just military expansionists like most other civilizations but instead a somewhat isolasionistic nation that tries to improve what they have instead of expansion. (perfectionistic strategy except WWII but that was an exception, before WWII have they also had a good economy).

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by DrFell
If Japan shouldn't be included becuase they don't have a completely distinctive culture, one that has borrowed heavily from Chinese culture, why don't we just take out all the European civs and put in the Greeks and Germans. After all, most European cultures could be considered mere offshoots of Greek/Germanic cultures.

The Germans are also an offshoot of the ancient Germanic tribes. "German" is not synonymous with"Germanic". The Germans are not more Germanic than the Scandinavians or the English.
You could say most European civs (exept Finns and Hungarians) are offshoots of the Indo-European cultures. Maybe there should be a civ called the Indo-Europeans?

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

In fact, I'd say that Japan is aggressive militaristic perfectionist. If this is possible at all... If you have "isolationist" there then militaristic isolationist perfectionist would fit them better.
And yes, I do think that non-militaristic civs should go it - the world wasn't built entirely on war, after all. But then the game would have to give more power to the pacifists - which I suspect the new trade system is doing.

[Colonâ„¢]

"The Germans are also an offshoot of the ancient Germanic tribes. "German" is not synonymous with"Germanic". The Germans are not more Germanic than the Scandinavians or the English.
You could say most European civs (exept Finns and Hungarians) are offshoots of the Indo-European cultures. Maybe there should be a civ called the Indo-Europeans?

Maybe we should just kill all old civs and replace them with one single homo sapiens civ, it would surely simplify things a helluvalot.

[Gangerolf]

Maybe we should just kill all old civs and replace them with one single homo sapiens civ, it would surely simplify things a helluvalot.

But where did homo sapiens come from?

(I'm actually quite satisfied with the civs included. But we obviously need the Vikings back.)

[Colonâ„¢]

"But where did homo sapiens come from?"

Maybe we should we ask Firaxis to junk this civilisation rubbish and create a game about bacterias instead?

[DrFell]

Originally posted by Gangerolf


The Germans are also an offshoot of the ancient Germanic tribes. "German" is not synonymous with"Germanic". The Germans are not more Germanic than the Scandinavians or the English.

Yeah I was just using the Germans as they're the closest thing to the Germanic tribes in the game (except perhaps Vikings as the tribes themselves mostly migrated from Scandinavia). Obviously, the point is that Civ3 is going to include less cultures than civs. Simply because a 'civ' borrowed certain cultural aspects off another nearby nation is not a reason not to include them.

[Dida]

By saying Japanese Culture is a banch from China is not undermining the cultural achievement of the Japanese people. There are 5 main source of civilization. They are Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, Indian, Chinese. Japanese culture was a branch from the Chinese root. It should not be included, because, 1) it was not significant culturally. 2) japan did not play a role internationally until the 20th century.