Resources= Play-Balance Troubles

[yin26]

Of course I understand your point, but Civ3 will be primarily a single-player experience for MOST people. Understanding this, the issue of AI should have a spotlight put on it. To simply say: "Look at all those new and complex things...this game will be WONDERFUL!" is to totally ignore the bigger issue that a programmer has to find a way for your comp opponents to effectively use it all.

Now Chris Pine, their resident AI guru, is no doubt hard at work on this issue, but it's an uphill battle to say the least. Don't get me wrong, I'm pulling for him. But when was the last time a TBS comp thrashed you without cheating? When was the last time you saw a TBS comp intelligently use the options available? It wasn't Civ 2, that's certain.

If it's a simple affair of maximizing build orders, the comp might do it well. But seeking resources across a random map, dealing with a highly flexible dimplomatic model, and using trade now as a vital part of your unit production...it will take even good players a bit to get used to that.

If Firaxis thinks their comp AI is up for it, why not tell us? Are we simply to assume? LOL! It's kind of like saying: "Yeah, our race car has a great paint job, a slick gear shifter, bucket seats and a 32 oz. cup holder!" What about the engine and handling? "No comment."

Huh?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by yin26
KH:

FACT etc.

Wait...I'm going to admit that I have no idea how well the AI will fare until I've played it, since my psychic sense is unreliable at best. Maybe you should do the same?

FACT: The Firaxis team knows how stupid the AI from Civ II was.

FACT: If given the choice between pissing us off and not pissing us off, four out of five Firaxis programmers would choose to not piss us off.

[yin26]

LOL! Fair enough. Your two facts seem right on...if a bit optimistic. One thing, though: I'd replace "psychic sense" with "experience." That's all.

[SerapisIV]

Well lets look at the past Civ AI progression:

Civ2 better then Civ1
SMAC better then Civ2
Civ3 better then SMAC ??

You can bet that Firaxis observed every bit of the CTP2 AI fiasco, given that and their track record, I see little reason to doubt that the AI, while not perfect, will be better then SMAC, a game's who's AI I was pretty happy with as a SP player.

[N35t0r]

and the main discussion after the game is out will be 'AI bugs'

[KrazyHorse]

I don't expect a flawless AI, but it would be nice if some of the more obvious errors which come to light after game release are fixed in a timely fashion.

[N35t0r]

let's set up a contest:

'who finds the first AI bug'

and
'who finds the first game bug'

[SerapisIV]

In my opinion, I think I found the first game bug......

THE GAME IS FREAKIN RELEASED YET

Goddamn, I'm having trouble playing SMAX because of all the promise that Civ3 has. The fact that the game isn't in my grubby little paws yet is definitely a game bug/flaw.

[KrazyHorse]

Gee...that ought to take all of about an hour.

[N35t0r]

that's why..

it would mean not only finding the bugs, but a marathon to the local games store

[TechWins]

SerapisIV I would have to agree with your last two posts.

[yin26]

The number of serious flaws in the SMAC AI is stunning. Uncleroggy found one, for example, with the needle jets that allowed him to EASILY defeat them again and again and again with almost no cost. Or the needle jets that would simply run out of fuel. Etc. etc. I don't care to rehash it...but when Brian Reynolds got the mail about that particular thing, he was genuinely stunned.

This comes back to my hope that the beta testers are given full reign to discover, report and see problems like that fixed. Unlike many of you here, I realize the limits of a small team of programmers to come anywhere near close the "real-world" gaming environment. They simply become numb to their own work.

Have you ever tried to proof-read a long paper for the 10th time at 5 a.m. only to have your friend, who has never seen the paper, look over your shoulder and say: "Shouldn't the title be 'Bug Report' and not 'Big Report'?"

So, no, I do NOT have faith that the Firaxis team on its own can handle this gameplay issue. That is not criticism. It's realism. And good companies actively seek veteran players and/or hold intense and fully-supported beta testing to get the job done right.

[DarkCloud]

... I don't know how but in Alpha-Centauri (at least for me) there was a bug that (even when I played as the University) when I played for 500-600 years I had either A: conquered the world (and) B: not yet researched past Level 5...

Resources just bring too many different figures to the equation for the AI to deal with... so, either Civ III will need a Pentium 700 with 256 MB of RAM or a scaled down version will have horrible AI.

No one sets out to make a horrible game, it just sometimes ends up that way...

Because of resources I predict that Civ III will be released Fall 2002.

[Dr Strangelove]

Yes I like the idea of resources that are more variable in quantity and the idea that some units will require specific resources to produce. Is the later certain yet? I'd like to see some resources have different levels of difficulty to harvest. As an example: the iron deposits in Spain were really quite small in total quantity of iron in comparison to some european mines of this century, but the iron was easily accessible. There was enough iron available to give Rome a commanding lead in iron production throughout its later history. The deposits in western Germany/ northern France on the other hand were much more massive, but the technological capability to harvest this ore wasn't available in the ancient world.
One point that should be made is that in the modern world the consumption of some resources has grown exponentially. The game should reflect this somehow. Perhaps the easily accessible resources should be of small quantities such that they are consumed by the advent of the modern era.
Finally, I hope that Firaxis will give those who create their own maps and scenarios the ability to manually place resources.

[TechWins]

Finally, I hope that Firaxis will give those who create their own maps and scenarios the ability to manually place resources.

Yeah, that would be really cool.