Differentiating between economic systems and political systems.

[ancient]

i think capitalism would give more money, production, but communism would increse the happieness, science

[Juggernaut]

Originally posted by ancient
i think capitalism would give more money, production, but communism would increse the happieness, science

ehhh...how can you say communism should give more happiess? communism is a form of f a s c i s m. it´s authoritarican, and forces people to think and act in a certain way. and it never works cause people like to own stuff.

and it should d e c r e a se science. you see, communism puts the relationship access-demand in a weird direction. it kills concurrense, which is the best way to discover more things. if corporations have to concurrate on the same market, the corporation has to discover new, smarter ways to survive. and it´s the absolute best for the clients and society.

the positive sides should be increased production and total control of everything.

i´m no capitalist, but this is the way it works.

[Fidel]

oh uncle,

let me get this straight:

it was actually czarist russia that produced a nuclear bomb? or was it italy or norway, perhaps sweden?
and i guess switzerland launched sputik into the space?
granted, they were not good in applied science, but Soviet basic research was top class....
already in 1970's they made a first holographic 3D movie and never commercially exploited it....because there was no commercial incentive to do so....well....a strange society by today's criteria...


as for hapiness...depends how you define it.... in china it's a bowl of rice, in sweden it may be pentium IV

communism definitely should have a crippling disability when it comes to using luxuries to raise happiness, but i do not know how the new trade system works in all the aspects. its productivity and science should not be tempered with, as it has showed wild swings in those two categories over the course of years. SU outproduced and outresearched everyone until 1950's (except for the US) and then slumped when quantitative methods ceased to reap benefits. i wonder if luxuries penalty is enough, it well might be, depending on the trade model....

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by LaRusso
quantitative methods ceased to reap benefits

Eh? The last time I checked, most (to understate it) science is done with quantitative methods. Otherwise it's just:

"I put some sulfur, some saltpeter, and some charcoal in a pot, and the next thing you know, BANG!"

"Really? How much of each did you use?"

"Gee...I don't know. Maybe we should get a scale."

[Fidel]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Eh? The last time I checked, most (to understate it) science is done with quantitative methods. Otherwise it's just:

"I put some sulfur, some saltpeter, and some charcoal in a pot, and the next thing you know, BANG!"

"Really? How much of each did you use?"

"Gee...I don't know. Maybe we should get a scale."

oh cmon, i am sure you know what i mean,
quantitative economic planning...as in
we will produce 250000 widgets, no matter how crappy they are and 100,000 gadgets even if they are all junk.
okay now?

[KrazyHorse]

Sorry; I really didn't know what you meant. You were talking about scientific research and about quantitative methods in the same sentence, so I drew a fairly reasonable conclusion that they were both in reference to the same thing.

[Juggernaut]

as for hapiness...depends how you define it.... in china it's a bowl of rice, in sweden it may be pentium IV

which people do you think are the most happy? the ones in a fascist country or a democracy?

why does everyone try to escape from cuba? shouldn´t they be HAPPY?

and you can´t just blame it on "everything-is-relative"

marxism makes you pay for stuff you don´t want. and it increases unemployment; tax cuts always give corps ability to hire more.

noone can starts their own business, which could improve things for the society.

and marxism makes people passive. through the social system, all they have to do is just stay at home and waite for the next subsidy check.

there are a lot of reason for the unhappiness...

[Fidel]

cuba was always poor
so was russia
people always migrated away. i mean, not everyone lives still of selling steel to hitler (that made a nifty profit, that private initiative hand in hand with foreign relations interests...)
sorry....i had to say it

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by uncle_funk
why does everyone try to escape from cuba? shouldn´t they be HAPPY?

Actually, you should bear in mind that Cuba's the only country from which the US will accept virtually every emigrant as a refugee. There's no doubt that the average person in the US has more than the average person in Cuba. That's not a fair comparison, though; a fair comparison is between Cuba and other South/Central American countries. It's practically impossible to get yourself an American green card as a Mexican, but look how many flood over the border every year.

[Fidel]

an applause for KH

[Juggernaut]

So Communism in Civ III should provide great happiness cause the people will get green cards to the democratic civs?

You may praise Communism as the perfect civilization how much you want, all i say is that ask someone who lived in in USSR, Czechoslovakia, Hungary etc., how happy they were!

authoritarican govs always cause unhappiness. and they also open the black market and suddenly there´s a maffia.

the more free people are, the more happy they become. rules are bad.

[KrazyHorse]

Look at the subject of this thread: Communism isn't a form of government; it's a form of economic organization. That means that Communism is not inherently more authoritarian than Capitalism. If you want the most extreme form of authoritarian government, you'll have to look to Fascism, an authoritarian system which supports Capitalism. I haven't claimed Communism as the perfect form of anything; as a matter of fact, my ideal world would be run under some form of anarchistic socialism. I am extremely pro-civil rights and anti-authoritarian. Your statement about authoritarian governments, the black market and the mafia makes very little sense. This whole confusion over what, exactly, collectivism is is not helped by Firaxis' bundling of political and economic ideologies in the same package. Bring back SE!

[Juggernaut]

Communism isn't a form of government; it's a form of economic organization. That means that Communism is not inherently more authoritarian than Capitalism.

everything that decreases people freedom is authoritarican.

you'll have to look to Fascism, an authoritarian system which supports Capitalism.

what has capitalism to do with fascism?

[Fidel]

i happen to live in one of the ex-communist countries. i live very well. however, overall the content of the people has descreased - look at any poll and you will find that over half of the population in these countries think that they lived better before. that is because a lot of them got really impoverished.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by uncle_funk

everything that decreases people freedom is authoritarican.

what has capitalism to do with fascism?

I don't call a more equitable distribution of wealth decreasing freedom. Fascism was rabidly anti-communist, anti-socialist and pro-business. Until the crisis of war loomed overhead, every Fascist state was as capitalist as any of the Western Powers.