Civil Wars

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Ilkuul


I would prefer to see a situation where VERY large empires simply cannot be maintained for long, regardless of what government-type you have. This would be more realistic historically. Areas that are geographically far removed from the centre of govt. will naturally want to split off and go it alone.

So anyone with a very large empire should EXPECT civil war as a matter of course. And what would really be great -- IF Firaxis have implemented "minor civs" in the way I hope -- is if, instead of settling everything on the battlefield, you could instead ALLOW rebellious provinces their freedom (as new minor civs), but then set up a close alliance with them. This would allow a de facto world power to be sustained, not as a single civ, but as an alliance of civs with a common cultural heritage and mutual interests.

America is a huge country if you think about it.

Germany is half the size of Wisconsin.

sure we've only been around for 200 years, but do you honestly see us breaking up?

(they already tried that, and we smacked them back into place)

[Your.Master]

Originally posted by UberKruX


America is a huge country if you think about it.

Germany is half the size of Wisconsin.

sure we've only been around for 200 years, but do you honestly see us breaking up?

(they already tried that, and we smacked them back into place)

Exactly. There ARE huge stable countries in the world. Russia isn't exactly stable, but it IS enormous and has been for a long time. The second-largest nation, Canada, is also stable (there are talks of Quebec breaking off, but the people of Quebec voted no and that stance is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future and even if it happens Canada will still be HUGE). Compared to what you find in Europe Australia and Brazil and China are gargantuan. Admittedly, a very relevant example, the Commonwealth, is made up of independent nations now, much like the minor-civ major-civ relationships discussed above. Nevertheless, precedent has been set for stable governments spanning vast distances.

[polypheus]

I agree that there are huge nations such as USA and China can be stable. But the question is that is it realistic for a nation to last for 6000 years without any civil wars or revolts occuring?

Let's look at some of the examples:
USSR - broke up into many nations (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc.)
USA - itself was formed from revolt from UK, also USA itself underwent a Civil War
China - underwent many Civil Wars throughout its history and was broken up and put back together many times in its long history
Roman Empire - broken up into modern European nation-states
Modern India - broke up into current-India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh
Ottoman Empire - broken up after WWI
Austria-Hungary Empire - broken up after WWI

Of course there are also examples of smaller countries such as Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, etc.

I definitely don't want Civil Wars and civ breakups to be occuring too frequently in Civ3. But I do want it to be a more prominent occurrence than in Civ1/Civ2.

One way to do this would be to allow you to support a rebellion in a Civ similary to "bribe a city" but which causes a the Civ cities to declare independence as a new Civ but not join your civ outright.

I'd like to see nations fighting Civil Wars, nations getting broken up, new nations being born during the course of a Civ3 game just like you'd expect in real history! If its done right, occurs only rarely (but more than happens in Civ1/Civ2), it doen't have to be too annoying or unbalancing and would add to gameplay, fun, and suspense!

Also it adds to diplomacy. Allies can be called upon to help put down a rebellion. Hostiles can intervene on the side of the rebels!

If Civ3 really can support 16 simultaneous civs, and if Civil Wars and breakups of civs is more common, then playing with 7 or 8 initial civs might be the best option since new civs will be born later in the game which would be both realistic and fun!

[Kc7mxo]

I'm still annoyed by the fact that there is so few civilizations. That just blows. I cannot understand how a TURN based game can have such a small amount of opponents in this day and age. I bet the real reason is they didn't want to have to do so many graphical faces. And they shouldnt. The faces should just be of ambassadors, and then they could use the same face for lots of differnet races. Come ON. Ive heard as low as 7 and as high as 16, and thats just too few. Especially with the limitations on cities. Ick.

[Deathwalker]

I agree the civil war model needs a huge overhall, it was way to simple in civ 2.

[Footie Mad]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
I'm still annoyed by the fact that there is so few civilizations. That just blows. I cannot understand how a TURN based game can have such a small amount of opponents in this day and age. I bet the real reason is they didn't want to have to do so many graphical faces. And they shouldnt. The faces should just be of ambassadors, and then they could use the same face for lots of differnet races. Come ON. Ive heard as low as 7 and as high as 16, and thats just too few. Especially with the limitations on cities. Ick.

And of course there is the matter of the unique units and balancing them...perhaps Firaxis are going for quality instead of quantity??

[Your.Master]

Originally posted by polypheus
I agree that there are huge nations such as USA and China can be stable. But the question is that is it realistic for a nation to last for 6000 years without any civil wars or revolts occuring?

True, but they aren't huge the whole 6000 years

Let's look at some of the examples:
USSR - broke up into many nations (Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc.)
USA - itself was formed from revolt from UK, also USA itself underwent a Civil War
China - underwent many Civil Wars throughout its history and was broken up and put back together many times in its long history
Roman Empire - broken up into modern European nation-states
Modern India - broke up into current-India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh
Ottoman Empire - broken up after WWI
Austria-Hungary Empire - broken up after WWI

Where's the Canadian rebellion? The Australian revolt? Not that I don't agree, but it's quite possible and not just the same kind of possible as it is possible for an IQ 60 person to score IQ 176 on a test.

Of course there are also examples of smaller countries such as Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, etc.

I definitely don't want Civil Wars and civ breakups to be occuring too frequently in Civ3. But I do want it to be a more prominent occurrence than in Civ1/Civ2.

Okay, I can agree with that. Every civ over the course of 6000 years should have one, maybe 2 minor rebellions. If you screw up or if you're just unlucky you might even get a major rebellion, maybe even a successful revolution.

One way to do this would be to allow you to support a rebellion in a Civ similary to "bribe a city" but which causes a the Civ cities to declare independence as a new Civ but not join your civ outright.

Actually, I've always thought that it should be that way. But you should be able to bribe territory - not necessarily just one city.

I'd like to see nations fighting Civil Wars, nations getting broken up, new nations being born during the course of a Civ3 game just like you'd expect in real history! If its done right, occurs only rarely (but more than happens in Civ1/Civ2), it doen't have to be too annoying or unbalancing and would add to gameplay, fun, and suspense!

Yes, but just make sure it isn't too common. And no dumb stuff like rebelling into six civs when an aggressive no-reputation punk comes in with a huge army.

Also it adds to diplomacy. Allies can be called upon to help put down a rebellion. Hostiles can intervene on the side of the rebels!

REALLY good idea, unless you're UberKrux the evil peace hater

If Civ3 really can support 16 simultaneous civs, and if Civil Wars and breakups of civs is more common, then playing with 7 or 8 initial civs might be the best option since new civs will be born later in the game which would be both realistic and fun!

I imagine that's how it would have to be. Otherwise, it would be a hard time NOT having about 4 of the initial civs die off before you make first contact. Sometimes civs die within the first thousand years with Largest map and 7 civs, on TOT's Extended Original (basically 6 Earth civs)!