c168 WHY CIV-SPECIFIC UNITS ARE A GOOD IDEA

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Jeje2
But, why do we argue anymore?
Soren Johnson, Firaxis, has given us some information and we will have these units in some form.

We continue to debate in order to try and influence the thinking of the FIRAXIS team. Until they have decided exactly how these issues will be handled that seems like a worthwhile activity to me. They may implement a system which 75% of the dedicated players have modified within 3 months of release because it is unsuitable or undesirable for whatever reason. If that happens then they will have missed an opportunity to introduce an alternative system that more people would use. Short of being a beta tester and being able to really evaluate, all we can do is speculate. It has the side effect of encouraging Firaxians to post here and clarify our thinking with some genuine facts

[Fidel]

I was on Europa Universalis international beta team. Boy, was that fun.....
It feels even better when you are able to make some useful comments beyond bugs reporting. Although EU ended up with some bugs which are successfully fixed by subsequent patches, I am rather sure that its great gameplay owns quite a bit to extensive beta testing.

Last but not least, I would sell my soul for Civ3 beta! Anyone at Firaxis badly in need of a soul?

[ZoboZeWarrior]

I'm agree with the idea that have specifics units is against the Civilization-game concept.

What about a viking civilization who live in a mountain area far from sea ? Will they have developt drakkar. Nop.

My opinion is that all units must be accessible to all civilizations. But the graphical representation must be different. (Western swordmen unit will be different that eastern one).

The fun in civilzation is to see a Viking civilization, born in a jungle milleniums ago, attacking his foe with mounted Oliphants units.

[Yog-Sothoth]

Originally posted by Omada

Every special unit ("Panzer tank") is tied to a specific special tech advance ("Panzer tank technology"). This special advance is offered to all civs that has reached the appropriate base tech ("Armor"), but as soon as one civ starts researching the special tech no other civ can pick it.



This way, the special units are not preset at the beginning of time (avoiding the problem with longships for desert-dwelling vikings) and there is an significant cost attached to getting the unit ("I have Armor. Do I develop Panzers, or should I go for Flight and possibly the F-15 instead?").

I like this idea, but I would like all special unit techs to be open to all civs. This way everyone can choose the unit that fit their strategy best. I don't think this would be to hard to program the AI do to either.

This will mean that special units wouldn't be uniquely tied to specific civs, but I think with culture etc, each civ will be more than unique enough.

Another advantage I think will come from this idea, is that you don't know which special unit the civs you encounter will have, so you cant just start to produce the units you know works best against their particular special unit right after the first encounter.

[Jason]

Special Units

Now, these ideas for special units I like; player specific and not civ specific.

Perhaps a dead-end tech that only provides the unit, "Blitzkrieg Warfare," everyone can research, or a one-player only mini-wonder? If it's too expensive noone would bother, probobly.

As many people have pointed out, Panzers as a German unit is pretty ahistorical. Heck, the people who pioneered the German tank-penetration strategy were British, even if their army refused to adopt the techniques in any meaningful way before the war.

[Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS]

Re: Lord of the Mark, you are too kind *blush*

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Actually my spies report this controversy is all kind of pointless because the real reason we're getting unique civs and units is because to save time and money Firaxis is building Civ 3 using the Smac engine. Guess what? Smac has unique civs and units

Ack! I think your spies have you misinformed. While we did start with the SMAC engine to get something playable very quickly, we have subsequently removed and rewritten (and debugged) over 90% of the SMAC code. The Civ3 engine has very little in common with the SMAC engine (and will have even less in common when it's done...).

[Gramphos]

It's great to have this (the engine) confirmed once againg.
I've heard it for a while ago, but things may change.

[Theben]

Re: Special Civ Powers

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
Because there has been so much interest in civ-specific units and powers, both on the positive and negative side, we should probably clarify once and for all that civ-specific powers and units will be fully editable. Thus, the anti-civ-specific crowd should have no problem taking them out of the game, and mod writers will also have the flexibilty to construct highly civ-specific scenarios.

Thanks for the post, Soren, but I think you've misunderstood the concerns of the "anti-civ-specific crowd". Look, we realize that you guys have put a lot of time and effort into developing "unique units", and probably ain't none too happy about us kicking the idea. But it's not that we necessarily want them out of the game, but that we'd like them to not be pre-determined before game start, and preferably determined by the environment the civ finds itself in. Failing that, a suggestion has been made to allow the civ who 1st discovers the pre-req tech for the appropriate unique unit to choose that unit if so desired- but then cannot choose one later. Of course both of these will require that the AI is smart enough to realize when to accept certain units.
Truth to tell I'd be happy just knowing that you've included different images for the same standard units based on different civs, or at least different cultures.

[Gramphos]

Soren, are you from Sweden?
To me Soren sounds as the Swedish name Sören without the dots. Together with that comes that you have the surname Johnson which in Swedish, from the beginning, meant 'Son of John'.

[Kc7mxo]

Unique units completly go against the concept of civilization that has built up in my mind over the years I've played it. Perhaps for others of you its what you've always wanted, I don't know.

I cannot understand why anyone would want them. Civ isn't about recreating our history, its about creating a new history. The names of the different civs are unimportant, thats why you can change them. They're just there for you to enjoy and to give it grounds in reality.

Special units can only unbalance the game, either via greatly strengthining a civ above its neighbors, or by weakening a civ below its neighbors. How can it weaken somebody? If all my neighbors have awesome land special units, but I got an awesome naval unit, what happens to me? And if I'm landlocked? Even worse. Of course, it won't be a problem very long.

The best method to solve this is to make the special units that that much of a bonus, but then, whats the point of having htem at all?

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by vgriph
Soren, are you from Sweden?
To me Soren sounds as the Swedish name Sören without the dots. Together with that comes that you have the surname Johnson which in Swedish, from the beginning, meant 'Son of John'.

Close. I am Norwegian-American...

[JosefGiven]

SMAC Engine

Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS
Ack! I think your spies have you misinformed. While we did start with the SMAC engine to get something playable very quickly, we have subsequently removed and rewritten (and debugged) over 90% of the SMAC code. The Civ3 engine has very little in common with the SMAC engine (and will have even less in common when it's done...).

I think it is a shame that we won't see a SMAC style 3D terrain in Civ III. Not only does it look good, but gradients could provide defence bonuses/farming penalties, etc. The 3D terrain in SMAC was one of the only features I liked. The named geographical features like Gorbachev's Plateau (or whatever) were cool, too.

A fully 3D terrain would not make scenario-building too difficult, either. How hard would it be to implement a wireframe editor with a bitmap textures file to edit so a scenario designer could alter both the shape and appearence of the terrain?

[Sava]

Originally posted by Kc7mxo
Unique units completly go against the concept of civilization that has built up in my mind over the years I've played it. Perhaps for others of you its what you've always wanted, I don't know.

So your saying making all the Civ's the same is the true concept of civilization? What makes a civilization a civilization is its uniqueness. If I had my way, all units would be civ specific. And you know what? That's how the real world is.

I cannot understand why anyone would want them. Civ isn't about recreating our history, its about creating a new history. The names of the different civs are unimportant, thats why you can change them. They're just there for you to enjoy and to give it grounds in reality.

People want REALISM in games. Why do you think people bought Civilization in the first place? Because you could control the Ancient Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, etc, and rewrite history with a realistic twist.

Special units can only unbalance the game, either via greatly strengthining a civ above its neighbors, or by weakening a civ below its neighbors. How can it weaken somebody? If all my neighbors have awesome land special units, but I got an awesome naval unit, what happens to me? And if I'm landlocked? Even worse. Of course, it won't be a problem very long.

Is the world balanced and fair? NO! Why do you think so many ancient civilizations don't exist any more. And its your own dumb fault for building all naval units if your land-locked. Don't blame your lack of skill on the developers and civ spefic lovers.

The best method to solve this is to make the special units that that much of a bonus, but then, whats the point of having htem at all?

Actually the best method to solve this is to let the game makers make the game. I bet you a million dollars when the game comes out you will spend hours upon hours playing it. I love how people get all upset with change when it is for the better.

[Gramphos]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
Close. I am Norwegian-American...

I was sure that you had roots in Norway or Sweden because of your surname. (In Denmark it would have been sen instead of son). Then I guessed Sweden because I'm Swede

[SerapisIV]

Originally posted by SoulAssassin
Actually the best method to solve this is to let the game makers make the game. I bet you a million dollars when the game comes out you will spend hours upon hours playing it. I love how people get all upset with change when it is for the better.

I hope so, I'm extremely warry of unique units, but hopefully Firaxis will strike a nice balance, play-balancing over various ages is my biggest concern.