c168 WHY CIV-SPECIFIC UNITS ARE A GOOD IDEA

[Erka]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


Excuse me? This is a big problem in multiplayer games. We customise our own civs. I don't play as German or Greek. How can you balance it out? Its a bloody silly idea. Its going to create fights between players.

Oh, I didn't mean I like the idea of hard-coded unics either, sorry if it looked like that!

What I was trying to say was that the much prefered and much superior idea that player get to pick their own civ-specifics during the game, with minor wonders or minor techs, only have one complaint, and thats AI. And if AI is not a factor (as in multiplayer) then you should be able to use this idea too.

[Soren Johnson]

Special Civ Powers

Because there has been so much interest in civ-specific units and powers, both on the positive and negative side, we should probably clarify once and for all that civ-specific powers and units will be fully editable. Thus, the anti-civ-specific crowd should have no problem taking them out of the game, and mod writers will also have the flexibilty to construct highly civ-specific scenarios.

Soren Johnson
FIRAXIS Games

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse Second off, we know that the terrain generation system has been revamped for more realism, so hopefully there will always be sufficient variety.

Umm, as in the examples I gave you, what if I don't want "sufficient variety." What if I don't want huge grasslands on my map? I thought CTP had a great map generator, because I didn't have to submit to standards of what a world map should be. I could make my own, and make my own distinct games. I don't want "sufficient variety," I want a unit system that is equally adaptable to all maps regardless of terrain.

Thirdly, I already explained why it would be so difficult to have the levels of individuality that you want (i.e. balance and AI).

I'm not asking for much. Having lots of barracks over time gives you slightly better units or a better chance of becoming a true veteran (if experience gradations are used), or building proportionally more cavarly than infantry would make your cavalry slightly more adept at attacking. All of these are simple algorithms and equasion programs that could be put in with great ease.

Finally, your signature's option puts only slightly less burden on the AI, and provides even more balance problems.

I explained above how the AI would have very little stress placed upon it. Would you mind telling me how my simple system would create balance problems, since everybody has a fair chance at each option?

[Alexander's Horse]

Lord of the Mark, you are too kind *blush*

Soren thanks for the info. But will it be an option in the set up screens? For multiplayers the toggle cheat mode approach is no good.

Actually my spies report this controversy is all kind of pointless because the real reason we're getting unique civs and units is because to save time and money Firaxis is building Civ 3 using the Smac engine. Guess what? Smac has unique civs and units

Care to confirm or deny Soren

[Soren Johnson]

Setup Screens

The Setup Screens have yet to be designed, so there is nothing I could either confirm or deny.

Soren Johnson
FIRAXIS Games

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by SerapisIV


Does this mean that each Civ gets four unique units, one per era?

No; definitely not. 4 times 16 civilizations would mean 64 unique units, effectively doubling the number of units they would have to animate. Since this is the most expensive part of game design, hell will freeze over, before they do that.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Firaxis is building Civ 3 using the Smac engine. Guess what? Smac has unique civs and units

Trolling again?

From all I've seen, they'd have had to totally redo the SMAC engine if they were using them. Resources alone demands a new engine, not to mention culture and the effect it has on the game world!

Thanks Soren...

[Comrade Tribune]

Re: Setup Screens

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
The Setup Screens have yet to be designed, so there is nothing I could either confirm or deny.

Soren Johnson
FIRAXIS Games

This is great news; it means suggestions are not pointless, yet. My suggestion is the following: Civs that are semi-customizable at game start (Master of Orion II system). Each player can 'buy' a small number of unique units/advantages/disadvantages of his choice from a given menu.

[Alexander's Horse]

No Imran, I am not just trolling!

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
The Setup Screens have yet to be designed, so there is nothing I could either confirm or deny.

Soren Johnson
FIRAXIS Games

Thanks for the advice Soren Could I make make a special plea again please for the interests of Multiplayers to be taking into account on set up screens? Options like "no start techs" are really important.

Also a "kick player" feature would really help. Civ 2 hangs when a player loses connection in simult, which we pretty much all play now. But even in turn based, we had a player fall asleep a couple of days ago and of course the game was stuck as a result

Player moving at the same time rocks!!!

There is a whole different mindset in multiplayer - like we play "colours" not civs - everyone has their favorite colour based on turn order and perhaps superstitious belief about where the civ is usually located on the map etc.

[Kestrel]

It sounds like Civ III is going to provide a rich vein for Customisers, Modpack-Makers and general tweakers.

One hopes that the way it is constructed will allow many of the alternatives posed above to be implemented according to taste.

Firaxis, which of the above alternatives will NOT be possible to Modpack-makers ?

[Seventh]

Smac has unique civs and units

News flash, SMAC may have unique CIVs, but it certainly does not have unique units that are Civ specific. All of the units in SMAC are avialable to all of the factions as long as the faction in question has the right pre-requisite tech.

When was the last time you played SMAC?

PS, what's being done to prevent the AI from cheating?

[dainbramaged13]

Re: Re: Setup Screens

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune


This is great news; it means suggestions are not pointless, yet. My suggestion is the following: Civs that are semi-customizable at game start (Master of Orion II system). Each player can 'buy' a small number of unique units/advantages/disadvantages of his choice from a given menu.

THIS IS GOOD

yes, do this

this here is GOOD idead


hehe

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Jeje2

Also if we take WWII and the German versus American tanks there are reasons to differencies. One of them being that German didn't have have some special metal alloies that USA did have. => USA grenades had a much better penetration rate than German. So Germans had to compensate with bigger grenades leading to heavier tanks etc. (OK, this has been told to me by a WWII panzer freak, hope I remembered it correctly)

Heh, this is interesting. Sunday Telegraph correspondent from the Eastern Front, Alexander Werth, frequently reported that the Russians used American tanks they got through Murmansk convoys as "supply trucks", since they were not up to any kind of fight against Germans. Perhaps special US unit - a combo of freight from Civ2 and a small cannon on top

If panzers should be civ-specific, then Russians should get T-34, clearly the winner of all major WWII tank battles and the best overall medium tank. Germans produced some of their best 'big cat' tanks towards the end of the war and in insufficient numbers to make it really decisive.....

[Jeje2]

Larusso:
Yes, it is true what you say.

I tried to tell that one the reasons for differencies in German and American tanks were that Germans didn't have some metals.

Now if we look at what FIRAXIS has told sofar - we can see that this civ-type-specific-unit can be achived with resources. (If you don't have that resource you develop tanks like German did otherwice tanks like Americans did)

In teh same way we could have the ocean as a recourse - no own good cost in north (Lot's of hard storms), no viking longboats.

But, why do we argue anymore?
Soren Johnson, Firaxis, has given us some information and we will have these units in some form.

[Fidel]

Okay okay