I Can't Believe Civ Doesn't Have This #2: techs without preqs

[Grumbold]

I'm split on how this should work because it is true that high tech weapons need adequate support to continue functioning but you only have to look at all the tin pot dictators around the world that have a few jet fighters, some helicopters and at least on tank brigade to realise that it is not that simple. 'Gift' units model the sort of deliberate lend-lease policies of big countries, not shady arms deals where gun runners break trade embargoes for profit. If third world terrorist organisations and revolutionaries can keep themselves supplied without official backing from any country then unit gifts are not enough. All they need to know is how to grow certain illegal but lucrative crops or hold businessmen hostage for ransom.

That you can build the units you have aquired tech for seems fair to me. Unless you have the prior techs to improve your economy like banks and factories etc your production is still going to be woefully low provided the AI has to follow the rules. If it just cheats and makes up which buildings it has and how easily it can produce units then the game has bigger problems than whether tech stealing works or not.

[colossus]

There may be lots of theoretical support for unlimited tech steal, but when it comes down to gameplay, steal tech with prerequisites becomes more logical.

The actual problem is not AI stealing armor or gunpowder, but space flight, plastic and superconductor without knowing even combustion! There are times when AI chunking out SS structurals when their active defense units are musketeers only.

[Father Beast]

I just had an incident in a game today!

I was at war with the romans, but wasn't paying much attention to them because I was concentrating on my war with the carthaginians.
A roman diplomat comes up to my city and steals Fusion Power .
Now aside from what possible use could they have for that tech, I checked with my spies, and found they were just still researching Mettalurgy . after a handful of turns ( and a LOT of trading techs with the zulus) they discovered atomic theory.

all this seems a long way from fusion power, but they just waltzed in and took it.

[Grumbold]

All the more reason to turn espionage from a unit based system to a spy screen with funding levels and selectable objectives like MOO, BotF etc. The whole idea you can nick any one (but only one) science from any city always was completely ludicrous. The only reason to keep it would be one of tradition.

[dainbramaged13]

Originally posted by me_irate
i believe that the stealing of techs should work simular to imperialism 2. if you have a spy in the civ it reduces the turns it takes to acquire that tech. so if you had a spy in london and the english had a republic and you were researching you would get maybe 10% reduction in that tech. if you have multipul spys in several nations you would get combined reduction.

also i believe other factors should reduce. each trade route with a civ that had the tech maybe a reduction of 2%. also an alliance would give a reduction of 10% peace treaty of 5% and every nation you are not at war with a 3% reduction. this would demonstrate the passing of techs, through merchants and civilians traveling between your civs.

This is great!

Father Beast, I agree with your topic, but not how it should be fixed. I agree with jMarks

[dainbramaged13]

Originally posted by Grumbold
All the more reason to turn espionage from a unit based system to a spy screen with funding levels and selectable objectives like MOO, BotF etc. The whole idea you can nick any one (but only one) science from any city always was complet++++ludicrous. The only reason to keep it would be one of tradition.

Ahh yes, so many things to fix, so little time...
too bad were only thinking of them now, when the games in ****ing BETA stage

[joseph1944]

Let's take a look at stealing tech or acquire tech from a friend. In WWII the Russian stole and acquired new tech in two ways.
The T-34 tank derived by way of the BT Cruiser from the American Christie T-3 of 1931. (Soviet War Machine) A Hugh leap for them.
The same with Fighter. We gave them the P-40, P-39, and the P-63. Another leap.
Also when we the U.S. was flying B-29 over Japan, several had to land in China and Russia. Since the Commie control northern China and Russia, all plane where turn over to Russia. Three year later at the May day parade (1948) the Russian few a whole squadron of what our spies though where B-29s over Moscow and later after calling Washington they found out we did not loose that many airplanes, so the Russian where able to rebuild and construct new plane in just three year. Some experts of the time felt the Russian gain 20 to 30 years in bomber production.
It the same with Jet Aircraft. The new British Gov. P.M. of 1948 gave them the Roll Royce Jet Engine to prove what a nice guy he was and two years later they had the MIG-15. Another giant leap.
And then our spies gave them the Atomic Sec. and we know what happen in a very short time.
Even the German got into the act when they capture a T-34. They took a very good look and then build the Panther V.
Yes when you acquired new tech. it only takes a while before you understand and then used it.
BTW before someone said I don't know was I'm talking about, there are about 200 books to my left about 6 feet away that I,M using for ref.

[Father Beast]

Yeah, joseph, those things happened, but the tech was within their reach, they just hadn't got it yet.

It's not the same as if they examined and rebuilt a bunch of F15s from a single model, when all they had was biplanes before.

the techs in civ tend to be somewhat more encompassing than those examples, Joseph. the difference between the german panther V, and their previous tank wouldn't even be listed as a tech in a civ game.

[Father Beast]

Dainbramaged, Irate, I think this model of trade or espionage reducing the beakers neccesary for research is a great one!
Unfortunately, it probably won't be directly implemented except in the fashion of civ2 (beaker bonus as well as gold for trade routes), if that.
I always thought trade between civs should lead to some leakage of knowledge, and that's always good for business, if not politics.

Whoever said the one tech per city rule is absurd is right. has nothing to do with the main subject, though.

Changing the model around to improve research costs for gifting, trading or stealing would be useful, but probably won't happen at this point unless it's already in.
I think the simple barring of techs without preqs is simple enough it could be put in at this point, at least as a startup option.
I Hope, I Hope, I Hope......

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Grumbold
All the more reason to turn espionage from a unit based system to a spy screen with funding levels and selectable objectives like MOO, BotF etc. The whole idea you can nick any one (but only one) science from any city always was completely ludicrous. The only reason to keep it would be one of tradition.

Like almost anything you can think of, this was suggested a long time ago. You can find it in the archives, I think

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by joseph1944
The T-34 tank derived by way of the BT Cruiser from the American Christie T-3 of 1931. (Soviet War Machine) A Hugh leap for them.

Right.

If the US had tanks as good as the T-34 back then, I might believe you. But the fact that the US tanks sucked during WW II until the M-26 Pershing came along, when the war in Europe was almost over.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Like almost anything you can think of, this was suggested a long time ago. You can find it in the archives, I think

I know that Like most Apolytoners I don't have time to read all the posts that get put on daily let alone search the archive for all previous references. It is not even the first time I have mentioned this point and I was certainly not the first to do so. It was relevant to this debate so I mentioned it again. I also support the Imperialism model which gives you solid bonuses for having spies in any countries which already know the tech you are currently trying to research. Conversely I detest the EU model which cripplingly penalises the leader the further they get from the pack.

All of these concepts are worth repeating for the benefit of any passing Firaxians just in case they are currently dissatisfied with the betatesting of their latest espionage tech-steal model and are considering changing it. I haven't seen anything yet to confirm for definite that it remains the same but in the absence of information we have to assume the Civ I/II approach is being used.

[Sarxis]

Um, no. I think the premise of the non-requirements is realistic, and it helps to keep any one nation from getting a tech advantage that is unimaginable.

Look at our world today! How many third world nations that just a few decades ago were, ahem, riding on elephants, but today have nuclear capability, or the automobile? Technology has a way of trickling down. Nations that actually brought us the automobile, or space flight, or the toaster, spent countless amounts of resources to develope these technologies over many years, but other peoples can benefit from the knowledge very simply, and very quickly.

It is much more difficult to create a concept than it is to copy one.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Right.

If the US had tanks as good as the T-34 back then, I might believe you. But the fact that the US tanks sucked during WW II until the M-26 Pershing came along, when the war in Europe was almost over.

That quote was taken right out of the book Soviet War Machine.
During the 20s and 30s our Army for the most part did not realized the need for a top rated tank (The Armour Approve Board suck big time).
For what ever reason Mr. Christie and the Army did not get along, so they the Army rejected his proposal and he was allow the go to the Russian. Even George Patton and the Armour Board where at odd with each other from time to time. Something to think about is during the 20s and 30s most of the top Generals where either Cavalry or Infantry in the 1800 and had just fought a trench war in WW I with Infantry.
The Navy was not mush better at this time either.

[Seventh]

I agree with FB's original post where he said you should have to steal the pre-requisite techs before you have an option to steal the more advanced techs. This solution is simple and it's probably easy to implement; besides in the real world a Civ with muskets isn't capable of advanced spaceflight.