I Can't Believe Civ Doesn't Have This #2: techs without preqs

[Father Beast]

I've lost track of how many times a bargaining civ has demanded Monarchy when they don't even have Code Of Laws. Or I have stolen (or traded or been gifted) a tech I don't have the listed prerequisites for. No matter what advantages it may give me, it still irritates me.

This is one of those things which just doesn't make sense. I mean, how can a civ make sense of the automobile tech when they don't understand combustion?. In the extreme cases, players have reported an enemy civ stealing space travel and building structurals while still running around with elephants and caravels.

I propose that a rule be made that a tech Cannot be aquired without first having the prerequisite. this is one thing that knocks my suspension of disbelief aside all the time.

Comments?

Oh, and sorry Korn for stealing your title. it was just so appropriate.

[Gramphos]

I think that you should need one of the prerequires, or half of them if there are more then two required to get a tech.

[JMarks]

Steeling techs is important! Especially advanced ones. However the rule should be you can't research off of the tech you stole untill you research/steel its prerequisets.

[Andreiguy]

I agree with you Father Beast !

However, the stealer should "get" the advance, but would only be able to *use* it after they get the prequisites. IMHO

[Dauphin]

I'm of the view that you shouldn't be able to steal techs. You should be able to steal aiding knowledge. A type of backward engineering.

If you steal the plans for an atomic bomb it does not mean you instantly can understand how to make another one, nut it sure would help you in your own research.

If you steal a tech you get (say) a 10% reduction in total cost to you when you choose to research it. If you are trading a tech make it (say) 50%. After all if you are being supplied information willingly you are more easily going to assimilate the technology.

These figures could also be modified if you have the prerequisites. For example if you have "Rocketry" and trade for "Space Flight" the reduction in cost could be 80 bulbs whilst if you are only as far as "Theory of Gravity" you make it 10 bulbs. That way traders of technology will more likely opt for the less distant technologies in order to reap greater benefits from trading.

[me_irate]

i believe that the stealing of techs should work simular to imperialism 2. if you have a spy in the civ it reduces the turns it takes to acquire that tech. so if you had a spy in london and the english had a republic and you were researching you would get maybe 10% reduction in that tech. if you have multipul spys in several nations you would get combined reduction.

also i believe other factors should reduce. each trade route with a civ that had the tech maybe a reduction of 2%. also an alliance would give a reduction of 10% peace treaty of 5% and every nation you are not at war with a 3% reduction. this would demonstrate the passing of techs, through merchants and civilians traveling between your civs.

[colossus]

Cannot agree more!

There are countless times when AI steal my plastic or superconductor(they always pick the juciy ones) without even flight. At least, tune down the power of stealing tech to make it more sensible.

[Yog-Sothoth]

Totally agree Father Beast, e g it is so annoying when you have reaserched for years to finally get the armor unit, and then the turn after one of the other civs steals the last tech from you and soon everyone has it.

If nothing else, there should at least not be possible to steal from an age you haven't reached yet.

[Provost Harrison]

Yeah, perhaps it would be good where exchanging techs without prerequisities doesn't give you the tech but gives you a sizeable reduction in the cost to represent having knowledge of what the tech is all about and what is being aimed for. maybe stealing or exchanging tech may give you 50% off that tech or something. It may help to make things a bit harder as well, but in a good way. But it would require a model to remember this information when performing the research...

[Father Beast]

OK, I've read, and I still don't think it should be possible to aquire a tech in any fashion without its preq. if a civ wants to steal lots of preqs on the way to their stealing space flight, that's fine. but to be able to bypass it is absurd

On the side of reducing beaker counts, it may make some sense, but a lot of these suggestions would complicate the game unneccesarily. I vote for a simple ban on aquiring any techs without having the listed prerequisites.

I can't research them out of order, why should I be able to get them in other ways out of order?

we now have the technology of automobile , which means we can build battleships, but if the engine breaks down, we don't know how to fix it since we don't have combustion . Ridiculous.

the point is, you can't even understand a tech you don't have the preqs for, so should be unable to aquire it.

I'm not sure I like the idea of exchanging techs, but not getting the techs. if the civ I'm exchanging with has the tech, they have the preq, and I should just exchange for that and get me a step closer to what I want.

Civilization has a number of techs that don't do anthing in particular, but are important stepping stones to higher techs.Like physics. want to tell me you can understand steam engine tech without that?

enough of my ranting for the moment. I'll be back later

[SerapisIV]

Originally posted by JMarks
Steeling techs is important! Especially advanced ones. However the rule should be you can't research off of the tech you stole untill you research/steel its prerequisets.

Originally posted by Yog-Sothoth
If nothing else, there should at least not be possible to steal from an age you haven't reached yet.

I'd prefer to keep tech stealing as is, but with only these two above mentioned tweaks. It's simple, it makes sense and it keeps the core-gameplay of Civ. Most important is the inability to research off of stolen techs without the prereqs.

[Grumbold]

If you can't steal advanced techs you'd have to work out a good way of supplying mercenaries and munitions to other countries. Anyone can get Ak-47s these days even if they can barely subsistence farm.

[SerapisIV]

Originally posted by Grumbold
If you can't steal advanced techs you'd have to work out a good way of supplying mercenaries and munitions to other countries. Anyone can get Ak-47s these days even if they can barely subsistence farm.

Absolutely, and the peasants who can't read but have AK-47s aren't building fighter jets either. Researching off of stolen techs shouldn't be allowed, though tech theft is very important to the game and history (the US got into the Industrial Revolution through stolen factory plans).

[Cyclotron]

You definitly should not be able to procure techs that you do not have the pre-reqs for. Some people have said that giving guns to cultures with muskets is allowed, and shoudl be allowed... the problem is, you are modeling arms sales, which is represented in Civ by giving military units, not technology. If you want to give those peasants some AKs, you would offer them a few marines/machinegunner units, not give them the tech for it.

[Father Beast]

Originally posted by cyclotron7
You definitly should not be able to procure techs that you do not have the pre-reqs for. Some people have said that giving guns to cultures with muskets is allowed, and shoudl be allowed... the problem is, you are modeling arms sales, which is represented in Civ by giving military units, not technology. If you want to give those peasants some AKs, you would offer them a few marines/machinegunner units, not give them the tech for it.

Absolutely, cyclotron.
In fact, I read once that the important tech that eliminated the barbarian ability was gunpowder. All you history buffs may debate this no end. what it said was that muskets require a civilization to reload them, whereas previously maasive amounts of swords/bows could simply be stolen by barbs and used without any tech support. not so with muskets and cannons.

in such case, you could sell arms (or in the civ context, gift units) to civs that cannot build anything like what you have, and they still wouldn't automatically have the tech to build them themselves.