AI Cheating?

[Krill]

Thank you, but I should be apologising for what I wrote. I'll edit it now

[Theseus]

I am proud to report that Krill is a member of Gathering Storm.

Gaming will... evolve. A lot. More than you think. One of our clients is EA (and I am still avidly pursuing Atari!!), and I had drinks with one of their top execs a couple of months ago... he thinks that television, movies, and gaming are all going to merge and morph into one thing.

So get ready for (a 14 year old playing) Buffy the Vampire Slayer to get pissed off at (computer AI) Shrek and demand that he leave her (Civ20) territory of Israel!!

On a serious note: The Turing Test will be passed inside of ten years, and then KAIs will abound... I can't wait.

[Aqualung71]

Forgive my ignorance....but what's the "Turing Test"?

[Theseus]

Alan Turing was a top British mathematician and scientist in the mid-20th century. He is well known for having been part of the team that cracked the German Enigma code during WW2, which played a major part in their defeat.

He also, prior to the war, wrote a seminal paper that provided the foundation for modern computer science (not to knock Babbage, Hollerith, and the rest), conceptualizing where the data fed into a computing device could in fact include the instructions for the handling of data.

After the war, as the implications and possibilities of computers were explored (think: 'I, Robot' by Asimov), Turing posited that a true AI could be achieved, and the test would be when a human, communicating via teletype, could not tell the difference between that and an actual human.

There is a foundation, and a prize, waiting out there for someone to write the code and pass the test.

Maybe it's my Civ bias, but I'd hope that the AI that Soren et al keeps working on, due to the vast and various decision routine challenges, has a shot.

[Antrine]

Now this conversation is becoming truely interesting! Artificial Intelligence Engine! As a visionary many, many moons ago, I had some rather vivid dreams how this could be constructed to emulate what the ancients referred to as Cosmic Consciousnes. It is on base nine or 'three on three', what I believe to be the oldest known mathematical principle of creating.

For various reasons personal and professional I well acquainted with Ancient mathematics and/or meta-physics or now called quantum physics. I am convinced from many of these ancient writings that computers are not new, except to us (then based on crystals and magnetics, watch the direction super-computers are now going). That woohy woohy aside, Artificial Intelligence is much more than pure mathematics, it is Philosophy that can emulate personality and even life.

Well anyway, I compiled much on this subject as a writer/researcher and see links to the patterns utilized in ancient India, Egypt and Greece with Temple Oracles that convince me what direction looks good for AI development. I happen have major pieces of said Oracles and have reconstructed whole ones for use in divining. Another subject closer to AI technology than one might imagine.

Well, since this thread is on AI cheating maybe some lattitude can be accorded my comments!

I am not here soliciting anything and very content working with the few people I know.

Myriad Blessings!

[Blademun]

Heh, forgive my cyniscm. I am 18 myself, and I have been playing this genre since I was 14, myself..

Of course I'v never been a normal boy

I can't really say where software is going, but I can give you a hint on where technology is going.

"At first I thought this was a joke, but this article from Microsoft Watch confirms it: 'Microsoft is expected to recommend that the 'average' Longhorn PC feature a dual-core CPU running at 4 to 6GHz; a minimum of 2 gigs of RAM; up to a terabyte of storage; a 1 Gbit, built-in, Ethernet-wired port and an 802.11g wireless link; and a graphics processor that runs three times faster than those on the market today.'"

Not bad, eh? So what are -you- running at? ;p

We are already getting some of those Graphics processors. We won't be hitting 4Ghz till the end of this year though. All and all personal computeing systems, the top end, are going to be morep owerfull then ever, the growth rate is becomeing trully expotiential.

[Guest]

The way I have always justified, to myself, AI cheats is that a true AI is a long way ahead for a comp game, (IBM and chess, okay, though i understand it acheives this through running through the consequence to the end of the game of every single move, (ie almost a fast 'database search'), rather than a 'predictive' AI, the way that humans (well at least me) think.

With this being the case, IF the AI is 90% as effective as a human at getting hold of resources (worker use and labourer allocation), 90% effective a using them (chosing what to build and where), and 90% effective at deploying the results (units etc), they are (0.9*0.9*0.9) 73% as effective as the human comparison.

So if AIs are developed to be 90% as effective as a human (me, and I am no MMer), they need an approx. 130% boost just to keep up at my level. This simple analogy omits several layers of sophistication that we demand (forward planning, dipl, trading etc), and is only a conceptual argument to make the case.

Additionally, the higher bonus at Emp and Sid are needed to make the game last longer:

There is no balancing routine where the playing field is leveled at the end of each era, so if you 'win' in the ancient age, the later ages are merely resolving the issues (by win I mean get to that position where the game outcome is determined, not actually finished). A win at medieval means the ancient era was competitive.

To make the game only determined at a late stage, Industial or Modern eras, a human cannot have won earlier (self evident, but worth stating), therefore the AI must be dominant and competive in the earlier eras, whilst the human catches up, hopefully as close to the end of the game as possible. This can be through Ai routines or bonuses. Since the game developers are not always aware of the optimal way to play the game (ie the exploits, and if they were, these boards would be much quieter) it is a little much to expect them to have a human beating AI written in the couple of years of development. How much time and money did IBM throw at beating a human at chess?

Whilst I want to see better and better AIs, I accept they will have to have bonuses, certainly at the higher levels where MM rules.

[Harovan]

Chess is not quite a comparison. Chess is a turn based strategy game too, the numbers are very different:

- Chess is played on 64 tiles. Civ on thousands.
- Chess knows only one terrain type (which means, none). Civ knows over ten, and all of them are different.
- Chess is always 1-on-1. Civ is at least 1-on-1.
- Chess knows six unit types. Civ dozens.
- Chess doesn't know diplomacy. Both sides are always at war.
- Chess doesn't have to deal with growth, food, production, commerce, research, tile and city improvements, unit upgrades and so on. Civ has to, and it's a big deal.

True, there are chess programs, who can deal with the best humans now, without any cheating. But look how long it took to develop those. Wait 10 or 20 years, perhaps game AIs will be able to deal with our best without cheating too. Don't worry, you won't be over the gaming age. In TBS, nobody is. Heck, I'm 46, and still TBS'ing often.

[Guest]

That was my point, evidently not made clearly enough:

In chess there is an AI, however it has taken a lot of time and money, and it is the game is more constrained and so not really comparable.

In the meantime, i'll accept a cheating, coniving, schemeing, dirty AI everytime.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by The pirate
That was my point, evidently not made clearly enough:

I wasn't opposing you, more debating by your side.

[Krasny]

when i play CIV i dont want an AI that plays CIV like deep blue

i want an AI that plays CIV like a human being

that is CIV AIs should be capeable of competant play but also some times making mistakes

[spy14]

Originally posted by Krill


Um, I'm 16, barely, but I can beat this game on Emp, no problem.

But when was the last time you saw/read on average 16 year old on a fansite?

Last time my bro was on a Tomb Raider site

Its like any other general rule tho, theres many exceptions to it. Just because im a 22 yr old male im not necessarily going to chip my motor and dump huge foglights on the front

[DrSpike]

The thing with chess is, the AI is still stupid, but the deterministic nature of the game makes it far more amenable to brute force calculations, in a way that civ could never be.

[Theseus]

Yeah... let's threadjack this ALL the way!!!

I am simply in awe of the Civ3 AI. Seriously, I know there are flaws, but H*TDAMN the guys at Firaxis did a great job... and with the old spaghetti code, no less!!

Here here!!