AI Cheating?

[Blademun]

I know, hence why I note their tactics as "Mind-numbing" I'v Been 'impied' before too. Its absolutely hilarious until they take a worker..then there is hell to pay, oh yes...

Needless to say the poor bastards don't last long in my games either.

[spy14]

I let the zulu get to modern times once (their science is not good, it took a while...). Despite having armour to throw at me I still saw considerable numbers of Impi's coming into the fray. Needless to say the entire Zulu army was demolished.

Maybe the AI's Impi obsession is something to do with the fact they have 2 movement?

[Antrine]

Yes, that is so, now go ahead show some nerve, you can. Fire up the C3C editor and 'up the Impi'; their attack, defense and hitpoints!

Oh, and be something besides Zulu...

[Theseus]

Umm...

What makes you think the *current* Civ3/C3C AI isn't actually a lot better? It's game-balanced for the great unwashed masses out there, so that Regent is playable and winnable. Fer chrissakes, look at the Amazon reviews thread in the Strat Forum!!

Soren, mostly, had to balance AI effectiveness with bonuses and known 'cheats' to achieve optimal playability. I used to ask him pretty often for the settings that would produce KAIs... he told me, somewhere (maybe in a private forum, a chat, or an email), that when he would debug he'd sometimes see awesome AI behavior depending on world settings and whatever the latest AI tweaks were. So awesome, in fact, that the game is toned done for the average, non-'poly, CFC, or RBC player.

Considering we are still getting "one more turn" addiction reports, including yours truly, I'd say he did a pretty good job!!

[Antrine]

No, I haven't looked at the Amazon reviews or anything like it probably.

KAI, what I mean by that is most likely different than most might think. The gaming industry is, I believe at yet another crossroads. Fast and sharp AI's are required. However, no level above Regent is necessary and every level beneath Regent needs be billed as a player handicap. Giving the AI's more material is not sophisticated, it is a old cheap shot, antiquated belonging to CIV1 and that whole time period.

AI must be programmable or tweaked by players. Aside from this consideration is a clear focus on the following goal.

An AI that can beat you One on One like chess! This gives diplomacy real teeth, if two or three other empires gain up on you, you're toast. And if you can fend them off, your a lucky genius.

Mark this, new games TBS style are being built as I type that will have 'transparent' AI routines. The AI's must not only be good but be able to get even better once a customer buys it.

This can happen many ways, player tweaking AI, AI learning from player and player getting 'outside' preped up AI engines from boards like this one.

As for mass marketing, simple, increase the handicap for players on and on, on down just like golf. Everybody plays, everybody has fun.


Oh, and thank you very, very much for a look into to some of inner workings of CIV3 with Soren, I have suspected from much game play that a killer AI in C3C was attainable given the 'right' settings.

Thanks.

[spy14]

The gaming market is at a crossroads Antrine - the search for bigger profits is meaning a lot of new potentially great games are being dumbed down so they'll run on consoles. Games like Civ fortunatly get away without this treatment due the fact they arent released on console, but the market in general is headed this way.

Anyone who needs convincing need look no further than Deus Ex 2. It was made for console and ported to PC. Consequently its an enjoyable play but not a even a shadow of its original potential (many, including myself, will argue that DX1 is still the better game)

[Antrine]

I do not deny the validy of your your point spy14, however the consol market will go the same way of what preceded them, such as web portals and the like. Fancy toasters spit for a season, yet only headed for a garbage can. The market will not long tolerate 'dumbing down' for more is always better.

[Blademun]

The market? You mean that seething mass of moronic 14-15 (and under) year old boys that have their parents (and their wallets) under their thumb, have a attention span of 3 seconds and 've all the gameing skills of my long deceased grandpa..?

PUHLEASE...

I wish I could belive the 'market' was such a idealic, high minded entity but it is not. In the 'market', games sell better if they've got weed depicted in them. They sell better if their complication involves 3 seconds of thinking and 1 hour of button mashing.

The bottom line is the average (ecspecially american) buyer is a F***ing moron, or if they're not, they've got 20 million times better things (in their own mind) to be doing then wasteing brain cells on Civilization.

There will ALWAYS be a market for Consoles, due to this sad state of affairs. To think of them as fancy toasters is idealism so intense..its sickening.

((PS, I take back the Moron statement. Calmer thoughts seem to suggest that most people..lack the skills...*ahem* required to succeed at games of higher intricacy...*ahem* excuse me..))

[Antrine]

They will grow up and demand more trust me.

[spy14]

Market is the seething mass of 14-15 yr olds. At the end of the day though games are dumbed down from PC potential so the consoles can actually run them (despite what said 14 yr olds will tell you, as you know the average PC has far, far more power than a console)

Any 14-15 yr olds on these forums??

[Antrine]

Probably,

However, no one stays at that age and the fads that cater to them change like the wind. And whatever one generation thinks is cool the next one will gladly spurn, if not just because...

...however Civilization lives on forever! How is that blind idealism. The ages of those playing this game is of the widest range of any out there. This is endurance and it is about being true to a theme and complete.

Now for some realism, Civ is OLD, tired, frayed, bugged, bogged down to easily, and under the control someone besides us fanatics who clearly see all and know all...

My conclusion, I have none, however suspect much so far as what the future holds... happy gaming or modding!

[Krill]

Any 14-15 yr olds on these forums??

Um, I'm 16, barely, but I can beat this game on Emp, no problem.

But when was the last time you saw/read on average 16 year old on a fansite? The game should not be toned down, or the tweaks that improve the KAIs should be made public.

[Antrine]

Did you mean 'should be toned down' instead of 'should not'. Just checking, sometimes my logic reverses like that.

Cheat, strategies, clever work-a-rounds will always be forth-coming. Now at 16, if you care to play in 5 years will you want the AI the same as it is now or better?

[Krill]

I meant what I wrote.

Yes, I want the game to be hard, or where is the fun?

And I've been playing this since I was 14, so in three years I want the AI to be better, and different. Otherwise it becomes boring.

[Antrine]

My adroit apologies!

//QUOTE//And I've been playing this since I was 14, thank you so very much, so in three years I want the AI to be better, and different. Otherwise it becomes boring.//QUOTE// by Krill

Here, here!!!