State of the Game

[LT Goodridge]

Greetings,

I've come back to Civ III after a long break to try out Conquests. So far, I've been enjoying it, but it seems many of the problems that caused me grief before are still around. I'm curious as to the fixes that have been found, either through gameplay or mods.

1) City flipping and units: I know that I can turn this off, but I think it is something that would be good if it could be fixed. My problem is what happens to units when a city flips. Few things drive me as crazy as losing a bunch of important units when a city, especially one I just conquered, flips to the enemy. If a size 1 city is occupied by 10 units, it shouldn't flip: it is being held in place by the army. And if it does flip, the units shouldn't be destroyed. I've had to resort to keeping units out of captured cities, which leaves them vulnerable to counterattack and revolts.

2) Diplomacy. Its still awful. In my current game as England, I was enjoying a nice relationship with Germany. We had numerous trades going, and had a 'gracious' relationship. Then, without provocation, the Germans signed a military alliance with the Persians, who had also randomly declared war on me despite good relations. We were all on seperate islands, Persia was #1, with me right behind and Germany a bit behind me. There was no warning and cause, as far as I can see, for Germany to do this. This homicidal and illogical behavior ruined what had been a fun game. It made as much sense as Britain declaring war on the US tomorrow.

(edit: I know the AI likes to pick on you when you have a weak military. But, I had one of the strongest and most advanced, and was about to launch an invasion against the Scandanavians, who I had been fighting for a long time. I had a large force built up, so I wasn't weak. The Scands. were on the same continent as Germany. One would think the Germans would join with me, their close ally, against their local competitor...but no.

3) AI exclusion of the player. I hate getting into a game, making contact with the AI, and learning that they have already traded techs with each other...and then won't trade techs with me. Getting cut out of the loop like this is very annoying - I don't always enjoy getting ganged up on by the AI.

Things like the above are what caused me to abandon Civ III before. Are there any work arounds, especially for the crazed AI issue?

Thanks,

[Mad Bomber]

Re: State of the Game

Originally posted by LT Goodridge
Greetings,

I've come back to Civ III after a long break to try out Conquests. So far, I've been enjoying it, but it seems many of the problems that caused me grief before are still around. I'm curious as to the fixes that have been found, either through gameplay or mods.

1) City flipping and units: I know that I can turn this off, but I think it is something that would be good if it could be fixed. My problem is what happens to units when a city flips. Few things drive me as crazy as losing a bunch of important units when a city, especially one I just conquered, flips to the enemy. If a size 1 city is occupied by 10 units, it shouldn't flip: it is being held in place by the army. And if it does flip, the units shouldn't be destroyed. I've had to resort to keeping units out of captured cities, which leaves them vulnerable to counterattack and revolts.

I have never had a size one city flip on me, and I have had exactly one city flip on me since switching to C3C (it was my fault) . Try building at least some cultural buildings in your empire, your citizens are probably 'in awe' of your opponet. In cities that have built up considerable culture, build a native settler, and abandon the city, then refound the city with the settler you have created. Make sure you bring some defenders on your conquests, they make CF's quite unlikely.

2) Diplomacy. Its still awful. In my current game as England, I was enjoying a nice relationship with Germany. We had numerous trades going, and had a 'gracious' relationship. Then, without provocation, the Germans signed a military alliance with the Persians, who had also randomly declared war on me despite good relations. We were all on seperate islands, Persia was #1, with me right behind and Germany a bit behind me. There was no warning and cause, as far as I can see, for Germany to do this. This homicidal and illogical behavior ruined what had been a fun game. It made as much sense as Britain declaring war on the US tomorrow.

AI's are traitorous bastards, get used to it. Remember Bizmark's quote; A nation does not have friends, it only has interests. American and British interests are nearly identical, thus leading to an alliance. If you want to see illogical and homicidal behavior, pick up a history book (especially one that concentrated on the 20th century) Just prior to WWII,, France was Germany's largest trading partner, the US was second, and the UK was third. China is now the US's largest trading partner and we may be at war with them in the next 10 years (4 if Bush is reelected)

3) AI exclusion of the player. I hate getting into a game, making contact with the AI, and learning that they have already traded techs with each other...and then won't trade techs with me. Getting cut out of the loop like this is very annoying - I don't always enjoy getting ganged up on by the AI.....

Its just part of the diplomacy, just wait a while and things will change. If they don't trade for tech they will almost certainly sell it to you. Also you may want to increase your exploration in order to meet civ's earlier in the game (depending on the level you play at)

P.S. Do you know (or have you been) any of the following?:

Coracle
Zuave
Jimmytrick

[vmxa1]

I don't see any of those things as issues. I do not even see flipping in games.

[Makahlua]

Lucky you.

A game I did last week, I had to take Kohlapur from the Indians -twice- becuse it's culture made it flip back (Copernicus' was built there) once in the war, the next time after, and that's -after- I'd knocked out the capital of Delhi! I was smartly prepared for that, and only lost one MechInf to the flip however

Which also makes me think of the crazy alliances, like when India broke a centuries old RoP/Trade just to poke at a city of mine over on the -English- border???? Nothing but gold there, and hell they owned most of the west at that point after pummeling the Koreans down to 3 cities. Insanity.

[eris]

Re: State of the Game

Originally posted by LT Goodridge
Greetings,

I've come back to Civ III after a long break to try out Conquests. So far, I've been enjoying it, but it seems many of the problems that caused me grief before are still around. I'm curious as to the fixes that have been found, either through gameplay or mods.

1) City flipping and units: I know that I can turn this off, but I think it is something that would be good if it could be fixed. My problem is what happens to units when a city flips. Few things drive me as crazy as losing a bunch of important units when a city, especially one I just conquered, flips to the enemy. If a size 1 city is occupied by 10 units, it shouldn't flip: it is being held in place by the army. And if it does flip, the units shouldn't be destroyed. I've had to resort to keeping units out of captured cities, which leaves them vulnerable to counterattack and revolts.

Not only is the city at risk because you don't have a huge garrrison in there, but the units that sit outside the city lose whatever defense bonus they would have gotten for being in the city. It makes for a painful trade-off decision for what unitsto garrison or not. Good game design. I'm glad they haven't broken it.

Note: An interesting speculation is what would you do with the troops if the city flipped and didn't eliminate them? Where would they end up? In the city itself? That doesn't make sense and in gameplay would be an automatic attack or something. If they are booted out, how far are they booted? The already programmed algorithm is the "your troops will move automaticcaly" one. I've seen that algorithm become an advantage sometimes. Also, do we need new unit graphics to show tarred and feathered Infrantry, and how much damage would that mean?

2) Diplomacy. Its still awful. In my current game as England, I was enjoying a nice relationship with Germany. We had numerous trades going, and had a 'gracious' relationship. Then, without provocation, the Germans signed a military alliance with the Persians, who had also randomly declared war on me despite good relations. We were all on seperate islands, Persia was #1, with me right behind and Germany a bit behind me. There was no warning and cause, as far as I can see, for Germany to do this. This homicidal and illogical behavior ruined what had been a fun game. It made as much sense as Britain declaring war on the US tomorrow.

(edit: I know the AI likes to pick on you when you have a weak military. But, I had one of the strongest and most advanced, and was about to launch an invasion against the Scandanavians, who I had been fighting for a long time. I had a large force built up, so I wasn't weak. The Scands. were on the same continent as Germany. One would think the Germans would join with me, their close ally, against their local competitor...but no.

If you think that is vicious and back stabbing, you should try playing with some of the people on these forums. I haven't gotten into the MP part myself yet, but I wouldn't hesitate to jump in at a moment's notice, especailly if I thought I had found a weakness that you hadn't. Each and every turn, you are susceptible to an attack, even if you fine tune the aggression level before you start the game. The suspense is a bonus.

3) AI exclusion of the player. I hate getting into a game, making contact with the AI, and learning that they have already traded techs with each other...and then won't trade techs with me. Getting cut out of the loop like this is very annoying - I don't always enjoy getting ganged up on by the AI.

There are ways to get the other civs to talk and deal with you. Some of it depends on the difficulty levels you are playing at. In the higher levels they are less inclined to deal with you, for the good reason that you are a conniving human whom they feel is out to beat them all. At lower levels, they are a bit more gullible. At any level it is possible to tempt them if you use enough bait. It's an interesting challenge that I am still working on. Trade is one of my weaker play aspects. (What do you mean I should give you something valuable? You'll only use it against me some day. I know it!!) I have been frustrated by it all and I have gotten away with some amazing deals and I am still not sure how to deal with the other leaders, an interesting simulation of my dealings with people in Real Life.

Things like the above are what caused me to abandon Civ III before. Are there any work arounds, especially for the crazed AI issue?

Thanks,

Things like the above are what cause me to continue playing Civ III. I guess it is all subjective. The workarounds, such as mods and control parameters are out there, but I am not sure if they will do what you want. The only control Ihave used (beside difficulty level) is one time I tried a reduced agression setting so I could do some builder stuff. It didn't work very well. I kept finding the nearest source of the newest stratigic resource to be just on the other side of someone else's border.

[vmxa1]

Makahlua one of the methods to prevent flips is to have lots of troops in the city. Hook it to you road net and cut it from theirs.

If going for cities bordering their capitol, I take their capitol first or in the same turn. As soon as resister are put down, I rush a temple.

So having one unit in the city next to their capitol is a big no no to me. I would have razed the city instead, if that was all I could spare at the time.

This is where those obsolete calv armies are so good. Bring one or two and many other calvs to sit on the city.

[Theseus]

Re: Re: State of the Game

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
P.S. Do you know (or have you been) any of the following?:

Coracle
Zuave
Jimmytrick

[Makahlua]

vxma - Yes, but I was trying to move quickly through in order to get rid of most of India's cultural core, I so I left it with a minimum (that was on the second round of flipitis )

[LT Goodridge]

Re: Re: State of the Game

Originally posted by Mad Bomber

AI's are traitorous bastards, get used to it. Remember Bizmark's quote; A nation does not have friends, it only has interests. American and British interests are nearly identical, thus leading to an alliance. If you want to see illogical and homicidal behavior, pick up a history book (especially one that concentrated on the 20th century) Just prior to WWII,, France was Germany's largest trading partner, the US was second, and the UK was third. China is now the US's largest trading partner and we may be at war with them in the next 10 years (4 if Bush is reelected)

P.S. Do you know (or have you been) any of the following?:

Coracle
Zuave
Jimmytrick

You can't justify the AI's behavior with historical examples. The AI is erratic and poorly progrtammed, plain and simple. In my example, Germany declared war on me for no reason - there was nothing to be gained by it, only loss. I then got them to sign a peace treaty, trade techs again, and form a military alliance against the Scandanavians. The next turn, they reformed their alliance with Persia and declared war on me again. All of this happened over the course of 3 turns.

In this same game, I had numerous backwards nations on the other side of the planet declare war on me out of the blue. It would be like The Republic of Congo declaring war on the USA next week.

The AI behavior is ridiculous and nothing like historical behavior. The closest it gets is when MPPs set off massive world wars.

For people like me that really enjoy good diplomacy, Civ III is annoying. Very few games do diplomacy well. I think Alpha Centauri was one of the closest, but even it had its flaws.

Oh well.

[vmxa1]

I'm not sure what history has to do with, you are changing history with the game.

Bismark can be counted on to be very short tempered.

[Plotinus]

I think the point is that, while the history of this game does not follow the course of real-life history, it should follow the same logic. Events in the game should be explicable, at least in theory, by similar causes and motivations to those in reality. So, for example, the real Bismarck may have waged wars against Austria and France, but he had reasons for doing so that made sense at the time. Only in highly unusual situations do countries declare war on other countries with no cause, either legitimate or not.

[Rasputin]

how bout humans versus AI , do all humans wait till they have good reasonb before attacking the AI. usually not, winning is what the game is about so most humnas will goto war with AI jsut to remain number one in game, AI seems to do same, expcet it uses all the AI civs not jsut one.

when i am playing i do try to find a reason to goto war, like hmm i dont share !!!!!!!

[Arrian]

The AI often does start totally silly wars.

The AI simply cannot resist undefended coastal cities. It just *has* to swing by with a galley and 2 obselete units.

To be fair, however, the AI very nearly caught me with my pants down last night (so to speak ). I was fighting a rather large war far to my south, and most of my northern cities, many of which were coastal, were undefended.

The Byzantines had recently built the Great Lighthouse, and I had just recently begun to see Dromon in numerous places, particularly off my western coast.

Then, out of nowhere (or rather, out of the Fog) comes a Dromon to my EAST coast, and drops off 2 ancient cavalry units right next to an undefended core city that is 2 turns from finishing Bach's.

It was a very close run thing. Luckily for me, I had one horseman that could get to the city in time, and during my build phase two more horsemen were produced in the general area. I stuck all three in the city and also marched some slowmovers (a bowman and a musketman) into the general area.

Both AC attacked. One won, one lost (the city was size12, but even so I was quite proud of my little horseman). I killed the second on my turn and that was that. We had ~5 more turns of phoney war and then I made peace.

I do sometimes get irritated when a friendly trading partner decides to pick a ridiculous fight in such a manner. But all things considered, there are other problems with the AI I think are more pressing (somewhere between PTW and Conquests, the AI city spacing and terrain improvements got all screwed up).

-Arrian

[Mad Bomber]

Originally posted by Plotinus
I think the point is that, while the history of this game does not follow the course of real-life history, it should follow the same logic. Events in the game should be explicable, at least in theory, by similar causes and motivations to those in reality. So, for example, the real Bismarck may have waged wars against Austria and France, but he had reasons for doing so that made sense at the time. Only in highly unusual situations do countries declare war on other countries with no cause, either legitimate or not.

Perhaps their leaders lied to their peasants and told them they were one of the most powerful nations on earth. Delusions of Grandeur are not limited to the AI. Look at Iraq; did Saddam back down when confronted with "leave Kuwait or war" and North Korea is continuing its Nuklear program in spite of the US and British aims to stop them. The same mistakes ARE made IRL and in fact this behavior is modeled on RL politics. I tend to like the unpredictable nature of the AI, it is much better than:

If AI strength is > 2:1
Then Attack
IF AI Stength is <2:1>1:2
Then Trade
IF AI Strength is <1:2
Then Surrender

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber
IF AI Strength is <1:2
Then Surrender

You mean "Then Surrender, Monseiur", right?