Diplomacy

[dexters]

Originally posted by kailhun
I have to agree that diplomacy is fairly pointless in Civ III. Basically it features in the following ways:

- all the AI civs have mutual protection pacts, so that sooner or later a cascade of wars start;
- if you want a luxury (say furs), you have to offer wine, dyes and incense otherwise the AI is insulted;
- techs and world maps are not traded for luxuries (if I even offer one as part of the deal the AI is insulted);
- if you have a tech the AI wants then most deals that do not involve that tech will fail.

Most deals run along these lines:

Me:"What do you want for furs?"
AI:" Wines, dyes, incense, world map."

Me:"What will you give for wines?"
AI:"2 gold per turn."

Somewhat pointless.

I'm sure this has been covered before, but It happened to me last night (again) and I felt a need to complain about it.

That's not diplomacy, that's trading. And as the poster below you noted, it's not pointless. Civ3 actually has a fairly sophisticated AI when it comes to trading. That is the result of several patches that removed human exploits and improved AI valuations. its not perfect, but its quite robust.

As for diplomacy being pointless, I have to disagree.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Sci-fi books/movies have already written the future.. we're just heading towards it now.

Wow vxma1 thats pretty hard line. I thought I was usually a pretty isolationist player. Obviously I have nothing on you. Am I right in assuming you have a large military?

Depends on the map and the level. I don't need a large military in the early part, unless at the highest levels.

Don't misunderstand, I have to pay a price for my lack of diplomacy. Loss revenue and some missed opportunities.

[Flip McWho]

I thought that the AI got continously more and more pissed off at you if you didn't trade with them?

Thank you Tall Stranger, I've always wondered why the AI want so much.

kailhun I've never really had a problem with the AI just giving a couple of gold. I'm usually pretty happy with what the AI gives me when I ask them to put something on the table. Usually I can get the likes of 150gpt for a single tech.

One thing I can't understand though is the AI attachment to Fascism and Espionage. They won't trade these unless for bloody stupid prices, for examply a couple of luxuries and a modern age tech plus some gpt. Doesn't make sense to me, those techs aren't that great.

[dexters]

Espionage is quite obvious. Without espionage, you can't plant spies, and the military advisor w/ spies is one of my most used screen in the middle to late game. I have circumstantial evidence that the AI is 'more' aware of my military make up after they have espionage than before. This is purely conjecture here, as I need to play a debug game to test this theory further, but it does feel like the AI will actively engage in an arms race with its neighbours, and I suspect its because it too has spies in your capital and can actively see at all AI levels (leader, city, unit) what sort of units you have.

A standard retort here I suppose is to accuse the AI of cheating and bring evidence that the AI knows all your units anyways etc. etc. To that, all I can say is since the AI isn't human and Soren probably won't tell us how the AI sees the world, we don't really know what it knows and at which level. The declare war routine may be the only routine with access to your force data, and even then, it may only give the AI a defensive /unit count value and not the actual unit break down. Therefore, I think that if what Soren said initially (nearly 3 years ago) was true -- that the AI was designed to cheat as little as possible, then they will have to pay and plant plant spies and only then can they gain access to hard data about your military composition.

As for Fascism, this may have simply been an AI quirk. Or the AI simply sets a higher than normal price for it because it is assumed the AI will like to switch to this government and thus denying other AI players from getting it too cheaply. for us humans, with the AI to AI trade bonus, the price may simply exceed what we normally can offer then AI.

We have to try and get out of the mindset that the AI behaves in a certain way for the sake of the human player. It looks to me like a lot of the AI routines are applied without discrimination of whether its human or AI, and i suspect that trading valuations, aside from the AI trade bonus, is exactly the same for an AI as it is for a human.

[Flip McWho]

Ahhh righteo.. see I've never really used espionage at all. I only rarely play into the late game.

Yeah I agree with your last bit. It's just easier to assume that the AI is catering for you as you don't see the AI dealing with each other.

[dexters]

Flip, you're missing out Especially after C3C.

I love my Battleships and airforce.

[Flip McWho]

Yeah I'm keep promising myself that I'll play to the end, I just never do. I always have these visions of large fleets controlling the waves and a superior air force, with a powerful economy to back it all up. I may start playing smaller maps so games don't take so long.

[Switch]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Yeah I'm definitely holding out for the days of almost pure AI (ie can think for itself). In those days we will see a AI that can compete on par with a human player. It'll be a day of glorious celebration with people crowding the streets getting drunk celebrating the birth of pure AI. Well not quite but you get my drift.

In my opinion diplomacy is the only thing lacking in Civ. Everything else is fine by me.

Wintermute?


However, IMHO I believe that 'AI's will never go beyond simply being programmed constructs that react differently given a certain set of conditions. The only thing I believe will expand is the number of variables it can react to and the number of reactions it will have available.

*Ahem* Please excuse my thread-jack, now please carry on. Nothing to see here.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
I thought that the AI got continously more and more pissed off at you if you didn't trade with them?

They seemed to get mad regardless of what I do, so I don't worry about it.

No wars with anyone, just made contact with a civ on another landmass and they have no contact with anyone on yours.
They are annoyed already, so what is the point in my trying to sweat them?

Yeah, you could go around and make gives and be cordial, but it is not my idea of fun. So I pay the price and ignore them most of the time.

[vmxa1]

I agree with you Switch. TBS games will not get a real comprehensive AI.

[vmxa1]

Dexters the AI already knows all tiles and what is on them, hence it knows about your unit disposition.

Set up a blockade out of it sight range and see can see the settler combo turn around and head back. Even though it can't see the units blocking from where it is standing.

I don't know if it know that is is made up swords or horse or whatever, but it knows units are there.

[dexters]

Yeah I know. As you noted knowing where the units are may or may not mean they know what the units are.

Also, The pathfinding routine may only be looking for a path from point A to point B and our blockade merely blocks the path. The AI may not even know its units thats blocking the path, only the path no longer exist.

[Solomwi]

Originally posted by Willem
At the very least, there should be a non-aggression agreement in the game, not just mutual protection.

Non-Aggression Pacts are already there, though not by name. I do this a lot when I get into a war with Civ A, and really don't want Civ B coming in on their side... open up diplo with Civ B, renegotiate peace, usually with no strings attached, and presto: 20 turn NAP. I abhor MPP's, and usually don't want Civ B involved on my side, either, so this works as well as anything. I haven't had Civ B break the peace before 20 turns are up yet.

[Willem]

Originally posted by Solomwi


Non-Aggression Pacts are already there, though not by name. I do this a lot when I get into a war with Civ A, and really don't want Civ B coming in on their side... open up diplo with Civ B, renegotiate peace, usually with no strings attached, and presto: 20 turn NAP. I abhor MPP's, and usually don't want Civ B involved on my side, either, so this works as well as anything. I haven't had Civ B break the peace before 20 turns are up yet.

I don't recall Peace Treaty ever being in the diplomatic options, unless I've just been at war with them. I'll check that out though next time I play. I don't like MPPs either, I usually end up getting dragged into a war I don't want. And even with Military Alliances, sometimes War Weariness forces me to negotiate peace, then I take a diplomatic hit. I'd prefer just to have certain civs stay out of the conflict most of the time.

[Krill]

If you go to the "Active" button at the bottom of the diplo screen, it will show you every deal that is still active between you and the other civ, including the peace treaty. Select that, and you can renegoitiate peace with that civ.